Low Fat Diet

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This post not CC’d by email   The active capsule in the study was made up of 75 mg of theaflavins   (flavonoids from black tea), 150 mg of catechins (flavonoids from   green tea) and 150 mg of other tea antioxidants called polyphenols.   That is equivalent to the content of 35 cups of high-quality black tea   and seven cups of green tea.

G’day G’day Mark,  Flavonoids and polyphenols are widely distributed antioxidants.  What they are saying essentially is, if one concentrates them enough so they can be used as a supplement then there is some benefit.  What I don’t see happening is people sipping souped up tea … the flavour with 35x enrichment would daunt the most avid tea drinker. [snip]   "Although the results are exciting, we do not want people to take the   extract in place of their medications," Maron said. "Unlike statins,   this product has not been proven to prevent heart attacks or stroke,   or to prolong life."

Wise words.  Lowering cholesterol was possible before statins but reduction in death from all causes wasn’t.  Statins lower the death rate for people with high cholesterol and LOW cholesterol.  The dealing to cholesterol was at best only part of the reason for their success. Best wishes, — Quentin Grady       ^  ^  / New Zealand,       #,#< [                     / /     "… and the blind dog was leading." http://homepages.paradise.net.nz/quentin

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Research finds lipid benefits in tea:    Doctors brew up some good news on cholesterol front    By LEE BOWMAN, Scripps Howard News Service    (Published June 23′ 2003)    (SH) – The first human study of a tea extract’s effect on lowering    cholesterol was surprisingly successful, even to the doctor who set up    the three-month trial of an enriched green tea extract.    "I was very surprised. I expected, if anything, a very slight    cholesterol-lowering effect," said Dr. David Maron, an associate    professor of medicine at Vanderbilt University in Nashville, Tenn.    "But what we saw was a 16 percent reduction in low-density lipoprotein    cholesterol."    The study, published Monday in the Archives of Internal Medicine, was    based on a randomized, controlled study of 240 Chinese men and women    with high cholesterol. Participants, already on a low-fat diet, were    randomly chosen to receive daily for 12 weeks either a placebo or a    375-milligram soft gel capsule containing green and black tea    extracts, enriched with the antioxidant theaflavin.    Neither the researchers nor patients knew which patients were getting    the active capsules.    While several earlier studies of food consumption had shown a link    between drinking tea and lower cholesterol, and animal experiments    with extracts have shown good results, this was the first direct test    on humans that showed an actual lowering of so-called bad cholesterol.    Tea is the second-most consumed beverage worldwide, although    relatively little green tea is used in Western nations.    The active capsule in the study was made up of 75 mg of theaflavins    (flavonoids from black tea), 150 mg of catechins (flavonoids from    green tea) and 150 mg of other tea antioxidants called polyphenols.    That is equivalent to the content of 35 cups of high-quality black tea    and seven cups of green tea.    Maron said while efforts at lowering cholesterol first center on    eating a low-fat, low-cholesterol diet with more viscous fiber and    using margarine with the natural plant compound stanol, there is still    a need for more non-drug options to lower low-density cholesterol in    people without heart disease.    "We need products that are more practical for the consumer, and this    study represents the first step in establishing the practicality,    safety and LDL-lowering ability of this tea product," Maron said.    While he’s pleased with the initial outcomes, Maron said more testing    is needed to determine the long-term safety of the extract, the    effective range of doses and what impact the extract may have when    taken with cholesterol medications, especially statins, a common class    of cholesterol-lowering drugs. Also, researchers want to see if the    extract works as well in other ethnic and patient groups.    "Although the results are exciting, we do not want people to take the    extract in place of their medications," Maron said. "Unlike statins,    this product has not been proven to prevent heart attacks or stroke,    or to prolong life."

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Hi Robert…. I hope this post works, coz I am trying a new agent for newsgroups. I just wanted to offer you my best wishes for your recovery.  As I am in Australia there is very little practical assisstance I can give you. Sorry about that. I understand your predicament after being hospitalised for four weeks several years ago after being successful on Atkins and losing about 110 lbs. The dieticians were useless, and would not/could not understand my requirements.  So I ate very little in hospital, and couldn’t wait till I was able to walk… I wandered to the asian take away over the road and found something I could eat.., while I still had surgical drains in me…, Just hid all the medical stuff in my dressing gown pockets.  I was ++SO++ hungry.   LOL. So Best Wishes, and maintain your wonderful positive outlook. Many people are thinking of you….. Kosmos in Australia 114kg/111kg/70kg Atkins (again) since 3/Feb/03 We are the Microsoft Borg. You have been assimilated. Stability is irrelevant. Where _you_ want to go to today is irrelevant. We will assimilate your currency

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The Atkins diet has been proven to lower cholesterol.  MORE saturated fat will bring down your cholesterol without drugs. This is a stupid and reckless answer. While many people on Atkins have improved their overall cholesterol profiles, it is not true for all.

Gee, NOTHING is entirely "true" for everyone. Our own BODIES make cholesterol. Studies are indicating polyunsaturated and hydrogenated vegetable oils make us produce MORE, not less cholesterol. Furthermore some researchers think cholesterol in the arteries has a protective function. One theory being when the body is too acid, the arteries are in danger of bursting and cholesterol patches thin spots like glue. You grossly oversimplify the issue by stating "MORE saturated fat will bring down your cholesterol."

OR…  vegetable and hydrogenated oils will cripple or kill you.

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well there’s only one vegan source of cholesterol, and that’s breastmilk. how old is your daughter?

It is not neccessary to INGEST *ANY* cholesterol to have cholesterol in the bloodstream.  You’re body makes it just fine.   The relationship between fat ingestion and serum fat levels of various sorts is a bit elusive.

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well there’s only one vegan source of cholesterol, and that’s breastmilk. how old is your daughter? It is not neccessary to INGEST *ANY* cholesterol to have cholesterol in the bloodstream.  You’re body makes it just fine.   The relationship between fat ingestion and serum fat levels of various sorts is a bit elusive.

Hi Here are a couple of abstracts from articles concerning diet and cholesterol levels. A search in PubMed will enable you to see current opinion on cholesterol and diet, or even cholesterol and the efficacy of the drugs proposed by your doctor. HTH http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&… Diet and serum lipids in vegan vegetarians: a model for risk reduction. Resnicow K, Barone J, Engle A, Miller S, Haley NJ, Fleming D, Wynder E. American Health Foundation, New York, NY 10017. The lipid levels and dietary habits of 31 Seventh-Day Adventist vegan vegetarians (aged 5 to 46 years) who consume no animal products were assessed. Mean serum total cholesterol (3.4 mmol/L), low-density-lipoprotein cholesterol (1.8 mmol/L), and triglyceride (0.8 mmol/L) levels were lower than expected values derived from the Lipid Research Clinics Population Studies prevalence data. Mean high-density-lipoprotein cholesterol (1.3 mmol/L) was comparable to expected values. Analysis of quantitative food frequency data showed that vegans had a significantly lower daily intake of total energy, percentage of energy from fat (31% vs 38%), total fat, saturated fat, monounsaturated fatty acids, cholesterol, and protein and a significantly higher intake of fiber than a sample of matched omnivore controls. Vegans’ food intake was also compared with expected values, matched for sex and age, derived from the second National Health and Nutrition Examination Survey and Continuing Survey of Food Intakes by Individuals 24-hour recall data. The vegan diet was characterized by increased consumption of almonds, cashews, and their nut butters; dried fruits; citrus fruits; soy milk; and greens. We conclude from the present study that a strict vegan diet, which is typically very low in saturated fat and dietary cholesterol and high in fiber, can help children and adults maintain or achieve desirable blood lipid levels. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&… J Am Coll Nutr 1992 Apr;11(2):126-30 Related Articles, Links   Effect of a diet high in monounsaturated fat from almonds on plasma cholesterol and lipoproteins. Spiller GA, Jenkins DJ, Cragen LN, Gates JE, Bosello O, Berra K, Rudd C, Stevenson M, Superko R. Health Research and Studies Center, Inc., Los Altos, California 94023-0338. The effect of almonds as part of a low saturated fat, low cholesterol, high-fiber diet was studied in 26 adults (13 men, 13 women). The baseline diet was modified in a similar way for all subjects by limiting meat, fatty fish, high-fat milk products, eggs, and saturated fat. Grains, beans, vegetables, fruit, and low-fat milk products were the foundation of the diet. During the almond diet period, raw almonds (100 mg/day) supplied 34 g/day of monounsaturated fatty acid (MUFA), 12 g/day of polyunsaturated fatty acid, and 6 g/day of saturated fatty acid. Almond oil was the only oil allowed for food preparation. There was a rapid and sustained reduction in low-density lipoprotein cholesterol without changes in high-density lipoprotein cholesterol. This was reflected in a total plasma cholesterol decrease from (means +/- SEM) 235 +/- 5.0 at baseline to 215 +/- 5.0 at 3 weeks, and to 214 +/- 5.0 mg/dl at 9 weeks (p less than 0.001). When the consumption of nuts high in MUFA increases the fat content of the diet, reduction rather than elevation of plasma cholesterol has to be expected, possibly due to the MUFA content of these nuts.

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You could try changing your eating habits by trying a vegan diet as demonstracted in the McDougall Plan

A vegan diet does nothing for cholesterol.   My daughter is vegan and it doesn’t seem to have done great shakes for her.

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You could try changing your eating habits by trying a vegan diet as demonstracted in the McDougall Plan  A vegan diet does nothing for cholesterol.   My daughter is vegan  and it doesn’t seem to have done great shakes for her.

well there’s only one vegan source of cholesterol, and that’s breastmilk. how old is your daughter? h.  

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The Atkins diet has been proven to lower cholesterol.  MORE saturated fat will bring down your cholesterol without drugs.

This is a stupid and reckless answer. While many people on Atkins have improved their overall cholesterol profiles, it is not true for all. You grossly oversimplify the issue by stating "MORE saturated fat will bring down your cholesterol."

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I hesitate to even post this but having seen some responses from people with a lot of medical expertise in the past figured it was worth boring 99.9% of the group in a quest for some good information.  My cholesterol level has been on the increase over the past few years and is running in the 260 range.  I told the doctor I see the other day that I’m not going to live forever anyway, do not like taking pills other than vitamins and really don’t want to start popping simvastatin or whatever it is they throw out for high chol.  Anyway he told me all that running you do, the staying away from tobacco, not drinking and so on is good, but, not doing anything to lower that cholesterol level is defeating all that work at maintaining a healthy lifestyle.  My question, would lowering my cholesterol level actually make me feel any better or is it just a number on a piece of paper?  I get the feeling that longevity is pretty much genetic anyway and even if I look great on some spreadsheet of lab values I’ll probably still be dead at the same age as my dad and his dad.

You could try changing your eating habits by trying a vegan diet as demonstracted in the McDougall Plan

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Thanks for the response.  My cholesterol was just checked about two weeks ago and I don’t remember the breakdown between the hdl and ldl.  I’ll try to obtain that information and then post all the data you mentioned.  

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I hesitate to even post this but having seen some responses from people with a lot of medical expertise in the past figured it was worth boring 99.9% of the group in a quest for some good information.  My cholesterol level has been on the increase over the past few years and is running in the 260 range.  I told the doctor I see the other day that I’m not going to live forever anyway, do not like taking pills other than vitamins and really don’t want to start popping simvastatin or whatever it is they throw out for high chol.  Anyway he told me all that running you do, the staying away from tobacco, not drinking and so on is good, but, not doing anything to lower that cholesterol level is defeating all that work at maintaining a healthy lifestyle.  My question, would lowering my cholesterol level actually make me feel any better or is it just a number on a piece of paper?  I get the feeling that longevity is pretty much genetic anyway and even if I look great on some spreadsheet of lab values I’ll probably still be dead at the same age as my dad and his dad.

If by feeling better you mean "peace of mind", then yes, I feel that you will feel better by lowering your cholesterol. I am 36 years old and I my total cholesterol has always been from the low to mid 200’s. You know what I found to be the main culprit? Snack foods. Not the snack foods themselves, but the trans fats that are in many of them. By avoiding anything labelled as "partially hydrogenated" you can go a long way in reducing cholesterol. I also avoid margarine like the plague. I do not want to take prescription drugs to lower my cholesterol. I avoid trans fats, include an Omega-3 supplement(Udo’s Oil) in my diet, take Garlicin (a garlic supplement)twice daily, and drink a few cups of green tea per day. So far, it has worked. People on the Atkins diet have also generally improved their cholesterol pictures. Niacin should only be used under a doctor’s care. The higher doses required for it to be effective can raise liver enzymes. Niacin can also cause uncomfortable flushing of the skin, although it is only temporary. Thorne Research produces a niacin supplement that supposedly does not cause any of regular niacin’s problems. It is niacin in the form of Inositol Hexaniacinate, called Niasafe. If you use Niacin, avoid time-released formulas. These have been shown to be harder on the liver than non time-released formulas. Good luck.

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My cholesterol level has been on the increase over the past few years and is running in the 260 range.  I  do not like taking pills other than vitamins and really don’t want to start popping simvastatin or whatever it is they throw out for high chol.  … would lowering my cholesterol level actually make me feel any better or is it just a number on a piece of paper?

This is a scientifically answerable question.  How old are you?  What is your HDL (good portion of cholesterol)?  Do you smoke?  Do you have diabetes?  Do you have hypertension (high blood pressure)? — Josh Steinberg MD, Syracuse

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|The pigs lost weight on coconut oil. Then why are their so many fat Hawaiians?

Mostly because they no longer eat their native foods.

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I hesitate to even post this but having seen some responses from people with a lot of medical expertise in the past figured it was worth boring 99.9% of the group in a quest for some good information.  My cholesterol level has been on the increase over the past few years and is running in the 260 range.  I told the doctor I see the other day that I’m not going to live forever anyway, do not like taking pills other than vitamins and really don’t want to start popping simvastatin or whatever it is they throw out for high chol.  Anyway he told me all that running you do, the staying away from tobacco, not drinking and so on is good, but, not doing anything to lower that cholesterol level is defeating all that work at maintaining a healthy lifestyle.  My question, would lowering my cholesterol level actually make me feel any better or is it just a number on a piece of paper?  I get the feeling that longevity is pretty much genetic anyway and even if I look great on some spreadsheet of lab values I’ll probably still be dead at the same age as my dad and his dad.

—The fact that you have a healthy lifestyle but it fails to control your cholesterol is genetic.  However, lowering that "number on lab paper" is, in part, helping to correct the problem and does serve a purpose.  Being genetic means we can’t currently cure it, it doesn’t mean we can’t effectively treat it.    Think long and hard before you brush this off because you just don’t like taking pills.  Those pills could give you 20 more years with your family. Andy Hass

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|The pigs lost weight on coconut oil. Then why are their so many fat Hawaiians?

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The Atkins diet has been proven to lower cholesterol.  MORE saturated fat will bring down your cholesterol without drugs. Well, I don’t know if it’s more saturated fat or the fact that fat is getting metabolized pretty severely in that diet.  

We didn’t alway use polyunsaturated vegetable oil. Vegetable oils used to be reserved for products like paint. They are natural immunosupressants as well. When petroleum products displaced plant oils in paint, we were left with a lot of veggie oil so farmers tried feeding it to pigs. They found they could feed pigs less but the pigs got fat faster when fed vegetable oil. The pigs lost weight on coconut oil. I spent nearly six months on the ultra low fat / no cholesterol diet with extra fiber and all the lowering cholesterol jazz.   Made no appreciable difference.

Yes, same here. It’s essentially the pig’s weight gain diet that is commonly touted as a "healthy" diet in the US.  It’s not.

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The Atkins diet has been proven to lower cholesterol.  MORE saturated fat will bring down your cholesterol without drugs.

Well, I don’t know if it’s more saturated fat or the fact that fat is getting metabolized pretty severely in that diet.   I spent nearly six months on the ultra low fat / no cholesterol diet with extra fiber and all the lowering cholesterol jazz.   Made no appreciable difference.

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The Atkins diet has been proven to lower cholesterol.  MORE saturated fat will bring down your cholesterol without drugs. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I hesitate to even post this but having seen some responses from people with a lot of medical expertise in the past figured it was worth boring 99.9% of the group in a quest for some good information.  My cholesterol level has been on the increase over the past few years and is running in the 260 range.  I told the doctor I see the other day that I’m not going to live forever anyway, do not like taking pills other than vitamins and really don’t want to start popping simvastatin or whatever it is they throw out for high chol.  Anyway he told me all that running you do, the staying away from tobacco, not drinking and so on is good, but, not doing anything to lower that cholesterol level is defeating all that work at maintaining a healthy lifestyle.  My question, would lowering my cholesterol level actually make me feel any better or is it just a number on a piece of paper?  I get the feeling that longevity is pretty much genetic anyway and even if I look great on some spreadsheet of lab values I’ll probably still be dead at the same age as my dad and his dad.

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(snip  My question, would lowering my cholesterol level actually make me feel any better or is it just a number on a piece of paper?  (snip)

If you are already living a healthy lifestyle but require medication to lower your cholesterol further, then you won’t feel any different whilst on the medication (but hopefully you will live longer, or at least not die from cardiovascular diseases). DK

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You might experiment with your diet.  If you’re already will to stay away from tobacco and not drink, you might find a change in diet will help you.  A consultation with a nutrionist might be in order, or just do some experimenting on your own. There is, however, quite a difference between looking at one’s lifestyle and looking at one’s cholesterol numbers, and your doctor needs to be reminded of that.  Some folks live a "healthy lifestyle" and still have high cholesterol numbers. One thing I’d recommend to you highly, if you haven’t had it done already, is a Fast CT Scan for Coronary Calcium.  It’s about a $400 test in my neck of the woods and is apparently a very good indicator of the state of blockage or lack thereof of your coronary arteries, the constriction of which is one of the main bad things about having high cholesterol.  If your coronary arteries are clear, then you might decide just to live with your high number.  There are other arteries in your body, of course, and I’m not an MD, but I had this test done even though I had no problems with cholesterol because I have a family history of heart disease – having the test done made me rest a whole lot easier. -S- – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I hesitate to even post this but having seen some responses from people with a lot of medical expertise in the past figured it was worth boring 99.9% of the group in a quest for some good information.  My cholesterol level has been on the increase over the past few years and is running in the 260 range.  I told the doctor I see the other day that I’m not going to live forever anyway, do not like taking pills other than vitamins and really don’t want to start popping simvastatin or whatever it is they throw out for high chol.  Anyway he told me all that running you do, the staying away from tobacco, not drinking and so on is good, but, not doing anything to lower that cholesterol level is defeating all that work at maintaining a healthy lifestyle.  My question, would lowering my cholesterol level actually make me feel any better or is it just a number on a piece of paper?  I get the feeling that longevity is pretty much genetic anyway and even if I look great on some spreadsheet of lab values I’ll probably still be dead at the same age as my dad and his dad.

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| My cholesterol level has been on |the increase over the past few years and is running in the 260 range. Post to sci.med.cardiology.  Ask for Dr. Chung’s attention. |I get the feeling that longevity is pretty much |genetic anyway and even if I look great on some spreadsheet of lab values I’ll |probably still be dead at the same age as my dad and his dad.   We know more about beating the genetic odds now than ever.  Take reduced food volumes and the science that surrounds the hypotheses that it is a major component in extending life.

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I get the feeling that longevity is pretty much genetic anyway and even if I look great on some spreadsheet of lab values I’ll probably still be dead at the same age as my dad and his dad.

*** Fortunately this is not exactly true. See for example: http://www.src.uchicago.edu/~gavr1/

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Hi, What is the big deal with taking pills?  Maybe the stigma of, "I’m not sick!" or admitting you are not "healthy"?   As we get on in to senior-citizen-land, the pills and the doctor visits get more frequent. Running is great for conditioning, but I’m not so sure about promoting health.  Look at George Sheehan and other running gurus that let things sneak up on them, and kill themselves.  I had a cerebral hemorrhage a year ago, I’ve been running for years.   When my wife said, "I think you are having a stroke!"  I said, "How can that be, I exercise?"  I found out since, there is no sure activity to preventing a brain bleed, whether, young or old or being in top  physical conditioning or being a big fat couch potato. Why I responded to you is because of the following: I had a real good friend, a co-worker, and a damn good die maker at the top of his skill, die last year because he would not stop his 18 hour work days and refused to take his high cholesterol medicine.  He was unloading a piece of machinery off the truck, he was on the ground, he felt woozy, stepped back one step, collapsed on the ground, and was dead before the paramedics got to him, two days shy of being fifty! You may have the luxury of your high cholesterol killing you outright, BUT what happens if you stroke?  Let me tell you—NOT FUN!   Recovery at any level just sucks!  Or if not recovery, just coping with everyday living life, like eating, drinking water, swallowing, walking, talking, or using the toilet! I eat two packets of instant oatmeal everyday, with a bunch of vitamins and supplements added in, I have trouble swallowing pills.  My cholestrol is 140.  They say eating oatmeal will reduce your cholesterol, but who knows? Stroke/brain bleed is not in my family, I’m the 1st.  My family lives into their eighties and nineties, several generations back.  But my Dad smoked himself to death at just 63 years old.   With today’s medicines and medical care, I disagree with the genetics.  You make your own life what it is.   Kurt Age 51 RE: high cholesterol   I hesitate to even post this but having seen some responses from people with a lot of medical expertise in the past figured it was worth boring 99.9% of the group in a quest for some good information. My cholesterol level has been on the increase over the past few years and is running in the 260 range. I told the doctor I see the other day that I’m not going to live forever anyway, do not like taking pills other than vitamins and really don’t want to start popping simvastatin or whatever it is they throw out for high chol. Anyway he told me all that running you do, the staying away from tobacco, not drinking and so on is good, but, not doing anything to lower that cholesterol level is defeating all that work at maintaining a healthy lifestyle. My question, would lowering my cholesterol level actually make me feel any better or is it just a number on a piece of paper? I get the feeling that longevity is pretty much genetic anyway and even if I look great on some spreadsheet of lab values I’ll probably still be dead at the same age as my dad and his dad.  

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Here’s a totally unscientific, take it for what it’s worth, piece of information:  I started doing combination therapy with Lovastatin and Niacin about a year ago. My cholestrol levels went from moderately bad to absolutley stellar.  My LDL/HDL ratio is now at 1.6, HDL up to 63, LDL down to 101.  My running times have improved dramatically over the same period.  However; I also started a much more intensive marathon program about the same time.  How these things all come together is probably so dependent on a persons individual genetics that it might not make a difference to someone else.  Lovastatin-Niacin combination therapy has actually been shown to reverse plague build-up in some people.  So therefore,  it could in theory be beneficial to a runner. Of course new research is coming out that says that our current cholesterol test is not properly gauged to measure the fluffiness of cholesterol.  Fluffy being good, So, who knows.  I made the personal choice to do the combination therapy, and it’s worked out OK in the short term.  What are the long term benefits, and risks?  Who knows. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I hesitate to even post this but having seen some responses from people with a lot of medical expertise in the past figured it was worth boring 99.9% of the group in a quest for some good information.  My cholesterol level has been on the increase over the past few years and is running in the 260 range.  I told the doctor I see the other day that I’m not going to live forever anyway, do not like taking pills other than vitamins and really don’t want to start popping simvastatin or whatever it is they throw out for high chol.  Anyway he told me all that running you do, the staying away from tobacco, not drinking and so on is good, but, not doing anything to lower that cholesterol level is defeating all that work at maintaining a healthy lifestyle.  My question, would lowering my cholesterol level actually make me feel any better or is it just a number on a piece of paper?  I get the feeling that longevity is pretty much genetic anyway and even if I look great on some spreadsheet of lab values I’ll probably still be dead at the same age as my dad and his dad.  

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IMHO, the 260 number, by itself, is meaningless, except to alert you to the need for additional information.  There are also HDLs and LDLs levels and ratios, and other blood tests including a new protein test that may have a correlation with heart attacks, blood pressure readings , stress tests (including nuclear), etc …. Genetics is an overriding factor, but no the only factor; and there is also the quality of live issues too. Given your high absolute number, I would obtain further information before deciding on the proper course of action, with a real doctor. Steven Zuch

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I hesitate to even post this but having seen some responses from people with a lot of medical expertise in the past figured it was worth boring 99.9% of the group in a quest for some good information.  My cholesterol level has been on the increase over the past few years and is running in the 260 range.  I told the doctor I see the other day that I’m not going to live forever anyway, do not like taking pills other than vitamins and really don’t want to start popping simvastatin or whatever it is they throw out for high chol. Anyway he told me all that running you do, the staying away from tobacco, not drinking and so on is good, but, not doing anything to lower that cholesterol level is defeating all that work at maintaining a healthy lifestyle.  My question, would lowering my cholesterol level actually make me feel any better or is it just a number on a piece of paper?  I get the feeling that longevity is pretty much genetic anyway and even if I look great on some spreadsheet of lab values I’ll probably still be dead at the same age as my dad and his dad.

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 This only relates to me but since lowering my cholesterol, LDL, and triglycerides, and raising HDL levels I feel considerably better.  I did it without taking medication but I was fortunate in that some people, due to genetics, need to take medication.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I hesitate to even post this but having seen some responses from people with a lot of medical expertise in the past figured it was worth boring 99.9% of the group in a quest for some good information.  My cholesterol level has been on the increase over the past few years and is running in the 260 range.  I told the doctor I see the other day that I’m not going to live forever anyway, do not like taking pills other than vitamins and really don’t want to start popping simvastatin or whatever it is they throw out for high chol. Anyway he told me all that running you do, the staying away from tobacco, not drinking and so on is good, but, not doing anything to lower that cholesterol level is defeating all that work at maintaining a healthy lifestyle.  My question, would lowering my cholesterol level actually make me feel any better or is it just a number on a piece of paper?  I get the feeling that longevity is pretty much genetic anyway and even if I look great on some spreadsheet of lab values I’ll probably still be dead at the same age as my dad and his dad.

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I hesitate to even post this but having seen some responses from people with a lot of medical expertise in the past figured it was worth boring 99.9% of the group in a quest for some good information.  My cholesterol level has been on the increase over the past few years and is running in the 260 range.  I told the doctor I see the other day that I’m not going to live forever anyway, do not like taking pills other than vitamins and really don’t want to start popping simvastatin or whatever it is they throw out for high chol.  Anyway he told me all that running you do, the staying away from tobacco, not drinking and so on is good, but, not doing anything to lower that cholesterol level is defeating all that work at maintaining a healthy lifestyle.  My question, would lowering my cholesterol level actually make me feel any better or is it just a number on a piece of paper?  I get the feeling that longevity is pretty much genetic anyway and even if I look great on some spreadsheet of lab values I’ll probably still be dead at the same age as my dad and his dad.  

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Question:

I just got the full test results from my Dr. office; I have results from January 02 and August 02. January 02: Total Cholesterol: 199 mg/dL Triglycerides:        81 mg/dL HDL Cholesterol: 44 mg/dL LDL Cholesterol: 138 mg/dL August 02: Total Cholesterol: 239 mg/dL Triglycerides:        65 mg/dL HDL Cholesterol: 63 mg/dL LDL Cholesterol: 163 mg/dL I have been strictly following Atkins for about 6 to 8 weeks prior to this test. The reason I went to see the doc was not for this, but to see about not taking medication for BG (I’m type 2). My Hg A1c in January was 5.8 and in August it was 5.2.  Exercise plus LC was causing me BG to get into the 50s, making me extremely weak.  I have since stop taking those meds.  I started Atkins on 10/07/02 but did not follow it faithfully until recently because of problems with diverticulosis and then travel. My Doc is telling me to go on a low fat/low cholesterol diet after I have lost 60 lbs on LC.  I don’t wish to do so.  Also, according to http://www.nhlbi.nih.gov/guidelines/cholesterol/atp3xsum.pdf an HDL 60 is a negative risk factor for CHD, and effectively removes one risk factor from the list. I’m 44 and diabetic, so I do have some risk factors working against me. I’m going to try Benecol.  Any thoughts about this stuff?  It’s just fat, right? Any thoughts on what my approach should be?  How shall I deal with the doctor? Thanks. Oh, there are a whole bunch of other numbers on these sheets, but they all are with normal range.

Response:

Were these fasting numbers? I sometimes wonder about the vast amounts of sat fats that many low carbers eat!  Why not substitute lean chicken and fish or a soy protein drink for several meals each week?  Cook with seasoned olive oil and serve with a salad?  I understand that part of the appeal of atkins is all the eggs, cheese and steak, etc. but I wonder if your numbers might improve a little if you ate more fish and lean chicken and less beef for say, five meals a week? I almost never get excited about one lab test.  Ask if you can have it run again in several weeks. Also, one doc I know routinely puts patients losing weight on low carb diets on a statin drug.  It’s controversial but losing weight far outweighs the risks for most people. an old cardiac nurse to say but…..  I don’t believe in them.  Frankly, I do not reduce carbs anywhere near what the rest of this group does but anyone can live nicely without bread, sugar, soft drinks, etc.  When you lose sixty pounds or so, consider gently adding more vegetables and low glycemic fruit such as apples to your diet.  Popcorn is high in fiber and you get a lot of food for a few carbs.  Nuts are also a good source of carbs because they come complete with protein and good fats combined.  I love it when mother nature does stuff like that for us! Meanwhile, when most people try to reduce fat and cholesterol all that is left to eat is carbs.  Too many carbs, especially refined, do nasty things to your triglycerides and cause you to be hungry all the time which makes you fat and then you die of a heart attack.  See? j

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I just got the full test results from my Dr. office; I have results from January 02 and August 02. January 02: Total Cholesterol: 199 mg/dL Triglycerides:        81 mg/dL HDL Cholesterol: 44 mg/dL LDL Cholesterol: 138 mg/dL August 02: Total Cholesterol: 239 mg/dL Triglycerides:        65 mg/dL HDL Cholesterol: 63 mg/dL LDL Cholesterol: 163 mg/dL I have been strictly following Atkins for about 6 to 8 weeks prior to this test. The reason I went to see the doc was not for this, but to see about not taking medication for BG (I’m type 2). My Hg A1c in January was 5.8 and in August it was 5.2.  Exercise plus LC was causing me BG to get into the 50s, making me extremely weak.  I have since stop taking those meds.  I started Atkins on 10/07/02 but did not follow it faithfully until recently because of problems with diverticulosis and then travel. My Doc is telling me to go on a low fat/low cholesterol diet after I have lost 60 lbs on LC.  I don’t wish to do so.  Also, according to http://www.nhlbi.nih.gov/guidelines/cholesterol/atp3xsum.pdf an HDL 60 is a negative risk factor for CHD, and effectively removes one risk factor from the list. I’m 44 and diabetic, so I do have some risk factors working against me. I’m going to try Benecol.  Any thoughts about this stuff?  It’s just fat, right? Any thoughts on what my approach should be?  How shall I deal with the doctor? Thanks. Oh, there are a whole bunch of other numbers on these sheets, but they all are with normal range.

Response:

Roger, I don’t get into the number game very well but I do know I’ve always heard that you should wait until you’ve been lowcarbing for 3 months to have your blood work done.  I can understand that those number would alarm you.  But I truly believe that over time low carb will help to improve those numbers. I’m sure some wonderful people here that are more into the medical arena then I will chime in.  (cue the med. advice people)  So keep reading and keep lowcarbing. Just my opinion Sheila

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Were these fasting numbers? I sometimes wonder about the vast amounts of sat fats that many low carbers eat!  Why not substitute lean chicken and fish or a soy protein drink for several meals each week?  Cook with seasoned olive oil and serve with a salad?  I understand that part of the appeal of atkins is all the eggs, cheese and steak, etc. but I wonder if your numbers might improve a little if you ate more fish and lean chicken and less beef for say, five meals a week? I almost never get excited about one lab test.  Ask if you can have it run again in several weeks. Also, one doc I know routinely puts patients losing weight on low carb diets on a statin drug.  It’s controversial but losing weight far outweighs the risks for most people. an old cardiac nurse to say but…..  I don’t believe in them.  Frankly, I do not reduce carbs anywhere near what the rest of this group does but anyone can live nicely without bread, sugar, soft drinks, etc.  When you lose sixty pounds or so, consider gently adding more vegetables and low glycemic fruit such as apples to your diet.  Popcorn is high in fiber and you get a lot of food for a few carbs.  Nuts are also a good source of carbs because they come complete with protein and good fats combined.  I love it when mother nature does stuff like that for us! Meanwhile, when most people try to reduce fat and cholesterol all that is left to eat is carbs.  Too many carbs, especially refined, do nasty things to your triglycerides and cause you to be hungry all the time which makes you fat and then you die of a heart attack.  See? j I just got the full test results from my Dr. office; I have results from January 02 and August 02. January 02: Total Cholesterol: 199 mg/dL Triglycerides:        81 mg/dL HDL Cholesterol: 44 mg/dL LDL Cholesterol: 138 mg/dL August 02: Total Cholesterol: 239 mg/dL Triglycerides:        65 mg/dL HDL Cholesterol: 63 mg/dL LDL Cholesterol: 163 mg/dL I have been strictly following Atkins for about 6 to 8 weeks prior to this test. The reason I went to see the doc was not for this, but to see about not taking medication for BG (I’m type 2). My Hg A1c in January was 5.8 and in August it was 5.2.  Exercise plus LC was causing me BG to get into the 50s, making me extremely weak.  I have since stop taking those meds.  I started Atkins on 10/07/02 but did not follow it faithfully until recently because of problems with diverticulosis and then travel. My Doc is telling me to go on a low fat/low cholesterol diet after I have lost 60 lbs on LC.  I don’t wish to do so.  Also, according to http://www.nhlbi.nih.gov/guidelines/cholesterol/atp3xsum.pdf an HDL 60 is a negative risk factor for CHD, and effectively removes one risk factor from the list. I’m 44 and diabetic, so I do have some risk factors working against me. I’m going to try Benecol.  Any thoughts about this stuff?  It’s just fat, right? Any thoughts on what my approach should be?  How shall I deal with the doctor? Thanks. Oh, there are a whole bunch of other numbers on these sheets, but they all are with normal range.

Response:

Hi Roger, Total Cholesterol: 199 mg/dL Triglycerides:        81 mg/dL HDL Cholesterol: 44 mg/dL LDL Cholesterol: 138 mg/dL August 02: Total Cholesterol: 239 mg/dL Triglycerides:        65 mg/dL HDL Cholesterol: 63 mg/dL LDL Cholesterol: 163 mg/dL

Roger forgive me if I am wrong, but were you one of the ones who carbed up prior to exercise? If so this might cause a rise in LDL if you are doing is several times per week.   It looks like your Triglycerides are okay… no very good…this is strange. However the numbers you quote show a improvement in blood lipids. Your Chol/LDL ratio fell from 4.5 to 3.8 which is in the desired range. Your Trig/HDL ratio also fell from 1.84 to 1.03 once again showing improvement. These ratios are important and indicate a reduced cardiac risk, but you need to review this with your doc.  Do a little research and be prepared to question you doc regarding this. The reason I went to see the doc was not for this, but to see about not taking medication for BG (I’m type 2). My Hg A1c in January was 5.8 and in August it was 5.2.  Exercise plus LC was causing me BG to get into the 50s, making me extremely weak.

Same thing happened with my type 2 dad, halved his meds. I have since stop taking those meds.  I  started Atkins on 10/07/02

Hope you mean 2001, if not you have not started yet:) but did not follow it faithfully until recently

You might want to give it more time….three months, and retest. because of problems with diverticulosis and then travel. My Doc is telling me to go on a low fat/low cholesterol diet after I have lost 60 lbs on LC.  I don’t wish to do so.  Also, according to

Dumb Idea, you might want to seek out a LC friendly endo for your condition. I really think that you need a specialist. http://www.nhlbi.nih.gov/guidelines/cholesterol/atp3xsum.pdf an HDL 60 is a negative risk factor for CHD, and effectively removes one risk factor from the list. I’m 44 and diabetic, so I do have some risk factors working against me.

That’s right another reason to get a Doc with some experience with this stuff, your ratio’s look improved to me. I’m going to try Benecol.  Any thoughts about this stuff?  It’s just fat, right?

Never tried it Any thoughts on what my approach should be?  How shall I deal with the doctor?

Get a specialist….retest your lipids at three months of FAITHFULL Low carb. Good Luck — Rick King 445/360/220 ish LC since 4/01/02 Last Weight on 8/10/02

Response:

:: Hi Roger, ::

::: Total Cholesterol: 199 mg/dL ::: Triglycerides:        81 mg/dL ::: HDL Cholesterol: 44 mg/dL ::: LDL Cholesterol: 138 mg/dL ::: ::: August 02: ::: Total Cholesterol: 239 mg/dL ::: Triglycerides:        65 mg/dL ::: HDL Cholesterol: 63 mg/dL ::: LDL Cholesterol: 163 mg/dL :: :: Roger forgive me if I am wrong, but were you one of the ones who :: carbed up prior to exercise? I did post a questions about carbing up, but I really haven’t been doing that.  Once I had a Pure-Delite Dark Chocolate bar with 1.1 grams of carbs as a "carb up", but that shouldn’t have had much affect. :: If so this might cause a rise in LDL if you are doing is several :: times per week.   It looks like your Triglycerides are okay… no :: very good…this is strange. However the numbers you quote show a :: improvement in blood lipids. Your Chol/LDL ratio fell from 4.5 to :: 3.8 which is in the desired range. Your Trig/HDL ratio also fell :: from 1.84 to 1.03 once again showing improvement. These ratios are :: important and indicate a reduced cardiac risk, but you need to :: review this with your doc.  Do a little research and be prepared to :: question you doc regarding this. Where do I find these ranges that you mention?  I would like to do some research before going back to see the doc in two weeks. :: ::: The reason I went to see the doc was not for this, but to see about ::: not taking medication for BG (I’m type 2). My Hg A1c in January was ::: 5.8 and in August it was 5.2.  Exercise plus LC was causing me BG ::: to get into the 50s, making me extremely weak. :: :: Same thing happened with my type 2 dad, halved his meds. :: ::: I have since stop taking those meds.  I  started Atkins on 10/07/02 :: :: Hope you mean 2001, if not you have not started yet:) Right, sorry! :: ::: but did not follow it faithfully until recently :: :: You might want to give it more time….three months, and retest. Will do. :: ::: because of problems with diverticulosis and then travel. ::: My Doc is telling me to go on a low fat/low cholesterol diet after ::: I have lost 60 lbs on LC.  I don’t wish to do so.  Also, according ::: to :: :: Dumb Idea, you might want to seek out a LC friendly endo for your :: condition. I really think that you need a specialist. I wish I knew where I could find one around here in SC.  I will look though. ::: ::: http://www.nhlbi.nih.gov/guidelines/cholesterol/atp3xsum.pdf ::: ::: an HDL 60 is a negative risk factor for CHD, and effectively ::: removes one risk factor from the list. I’m 44 and diabetic, so I do ::: have some risk factors working against me. :: :: That’s right another reason to get a Doc with some experience with :: this stuff, :: your ratio’s look improved to me. That’s what I thought.  Everything I’ve read recently says sat fat is a wash on cholesterol since it drives up both HDL and LDL. :: ::: I’m going to try Benecol.  Any thoughts about this stuff?  It’s ::: just fat, right? :: :: Never tried it :: ::: Any thoughts on what my approach should be?  How shall I deal with ::: the doctor? :: :: Get a specialist….retest your lipids at three months of FAITHFULL :: Low carb. This time it will be FAITHFULL.  For some reason, I’ve become rock solid now.  I guess the awful constipation is gone so I don’t suffer with LC in the long term.  Plus, I have no travel plans until Thanksgivings, and that’s an easy day to keep to LC for me. Thanks for your help, Rick!

Response:

Were these fasting numbers? I sometimes wonder about the vast amounts of sat fats that many low carbers eat!  Why not substitute lean chicken and fish or a soy protein drink for several meals each week? Actually, that’s what I do… I don’t *cook* with olive oil, though.  I pay big bucks for *cold* pressed extra virgin, and I am not going to taint it by heating it. I like lean cuts of chicken and turkey, and green beans, etc, and drizzle with olive oil.  I don’t like bacon nor can I eat dairy.

Since the jury is still out on the saturated fats question, my husband — who has had two heart attacks — avoids saturated fat and arachidonic acid found in foods such as red meat and eggs. We use olive oil extensively for our foods–both cooked and uncooked. Last week my girlfriend said she heard Narsai David, the SF Bay Area’s food guru, say to not bother cooking with extra virgin olive oil because it’s a waste.  I thought that EV olive oil could survive  if you cooked with it but did not let it get to its ’smoke point.’  Then, it would be trashed.  So, is any cooking — even at below smoke point — a problem for EV olive oil?  (Not to worried, though, as I still splash it on all kinds of uncooked foods each day. ) Anyone know?

Response:

Last week my girlfriend said she heard Narsai David, the SF Bay Area’s food guru, say to not bother cooking with extra virgin olive oil because it’s a waste.  I thought that EV olive oil could survive  if you cooked with it but did not let it get to its ’smoke point.’  Then, it would be trashed.  So, is any cooking — even at below smoke point — a problem for EV olive oil?  (Not to worried, though, as I still splash it on all kinds of uncooked foods each day. ) Anyone know?

I suspect that "waste" refers to spending the extra money for EV and not getting any benefit. Smoke point of EV olive oil is quite a bit lower than "light" or "pure", which is filtered. The subject is discussed here : http://www.foodtv.com/terms/tt-r2/0,4474,4171,00.html Quote from article "The International Olive Oil Institute recommends using pure olive oil for frying, since the flavor of extra virgin olive oil tends to break down at frying temperatures, making the added expense a waste. "

Response:

:: x-no-archive: yes :: ::: January 02 and August 02. ::: ::: January 02: ::: Total Cholesterol: 199 mg/dL ::: Triglycerides:        81 mg/dL ::: HDL Cholesterol: 44 mg/dL ::: LDL Cholesterol: 138 mg/dL ::: ::: August 02: ::: Total Cholesterol: 239 mg/dL ::: Triglycerides:        65 mg/dL ::: HDL Cholesterol: 63 mg/dL ::: LDL Cholesterol: 163 mg/dL :: :: Roger, your numbers show a significant improvement in your ratio of :: HDL/TC which is all that matters when considering the hem; the :: aggregate number is meaningless. You’ve also lowered your already :: healthyTGL. Since TGL may be even more associated with CVD than TC :: or LDL, you’re improving your risk category across the board! :: :: From comparing the two, you have significantly lowered your risk of :: CVD on low carb. :: :: Your January 02 HDL/TC ratio is 4.52, which carried a slightly :: elevated risk of CVD. :: :: Your August ratio is 3.79, which means you.ve reduced your risk to :: target range, below average in just over half a year. :: :: Your doctor is dangerously misinformed, and so is anyone who focuses :: on your LDL or TC outside the context of ratios and tells you to :: alter your diet. :: :: Susan Thanks, Susan.  After spending most of the day reading up on the Internet, I have come to the same conclusion as you have mentioned, and also what Rick mentioned in another post. It’s funny, because now I feel so much better than I did a few days ago! Ignorance is a dangerous thing.  Now, for some time on the bike!  :)

Response:

Roger, I want to chime back in here again and say some (most) doctors are now looking at the ratio’s both Susan and I told you about.  So either your Doc is anti LC and wants to scare you off the diet or because he or she KNOWS your ratio’s are improved and they aren’t keeping up with current research which is very Bad! Either way, get a second opinion…recheck after three months…and since you are a diabetic look for a Endo, who is LC friendly.  Make some phone calls and interview them! — Rick King 445/360/220 ish LC since 4/01/02 Last Weight on 8/10/02

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – :: x-no-archive: yes :: ::: January 02 and August 02. ::: ::: January 02: ::: Total Cholesterol: 199 mg/dL ::: Triglycerides:        81 mg/dL ::: HDL Cholesterol: 44 mg/dL ::: LDL Cholesterol: 138 mg/dL ::: ::: August 02: ::: Total Cholesterol: 239 mg/dL ::: Triglycerides:        65 mg/dL ::: HDL Cholesterol: 63 mg/dL ::: LDL Cholesterol: 163 mg/dL :: :: Roger, your numbers show a significant improvement in your ratio of :: HDL/TC which is all that matters when considering the hem; the :: aggregate number is meaningless. You’ve also lowered your already :: healthyTGL. Since TGL may be even more associated with CVD than TC :: or LDL, you’re improving your risk category across the board! :: :: From comparing the two, you have significantly lowered your risk of :: CVD on low carb. :: :: Your January 02 HDL/TC ratio is 4.52, which carried a slightly :: elevated risk of CVD. :: :: Your August ratio is 3.79, which means you.ve reduced your risk to :: target range, below average in just over half a year. :: :: Your doctor is dangerously misinformed, and so is anyone who focuses :: on your LDL or TC outside the context of ratios and tells you to :: alter your diet. :: :: Susan Thanks, Susan.  After spending most of the day reading up on the Internet, I have come to the same conclusion as you have mentioned, and also what Rick mentioned in another post. It’s funny, because now I feel so much better than I did a few days ago! Ignorance is a dangerous thing.  Now, for some time on the bike!  :)

Response:

Where do I find these ranges that you mention?  I would like to do some research before going back to see the doc in two weeks.

If you can’t find the numbers on the net, you can try several things: First, look up laboratory services on the web.  See if there is anything published. Next, call a local lab and ask to speak with the lab manager.   He or she should be able to tell you. There is a lab book for nurses available at most book stores.  Look for it. It tells about norms, highs and lows and interventions.   I It is a good thing. Finally, call a local home health agency and ask for a  case manager.  They deal with lab all day long and can tell you norms, etc. j

Response:

Will do, Rick.  This was my first time meeting her and she didn’t say very much for or against LC….in fact, she may not have even heard me when I told her I was LC.  In any case, I don’t plan to blindly follow her advice, and if she doesn’t get on board really quick, I’ll can her butt!  I will look for aa LC friendly Endo….seems like a good idea.  Thanks.

:: Roger, :: I want to chime back in here again and say some (most) doctors are :: now looking at the ratio’s both Susan and I told you about.  So :: either your Doc is anti LC and wants to scare you off the diet or :: because he or she KNOWS your ratio’s are improved and they aren’t :: keeping up with current research which is very Bad! :: :: Either way, get a second opinion…recheck after three months…and :: since you are a diabetic look for a Endo, who is LC friendly.  Make :: some phone calls and interview them! :: — :: Rick King :: 445/360/220 ish :: LC since 4/01/02 :: Last Weight on 8/10/02 ::

::::: x-no-archive: yes ::::: :::::: January 02 and August 02. :::::: :::::: January 02: :::::: Total Cholesterol: 199 mg/dL :::::: Triglycerides:        81 mg/dL :::::: HDL Cholesterol: 44 mg/dL :::::: LDL Cholesterol: 138 mg/dL :::::: :::::: August 02: :::::: Total Cholesterol: 239 mg/dL :::::: Triglycerides:        65 mg/dL :::::: HDL Cholesterol: 63 mg/dL :::::: LDL Cholesterol: 163 mg/dL ::::: ::::: Roger, your numbers show a significant improvement in your ratio ::::: of HDL/TC which is all that matters when considering the hem; the ::::: aggregate number is meaningless. You’ve also lowered your already ::::: healthyTGL. Since TGL may be even more associated with CVD than TC ::::: or LDL, you’re improving your risk category across the board! ::::: ::::: From comparing the two, you have significantly lowered your risk ::::: of CVD on low carb. ::::: ::::: Your January 02 HDL/TC ratio is 4.52, which carried a slightly ::::: elevated risk of CVD. ::::: ::::: Your August ratio is 3.79, which means you.ve reduced your risk to ::::: target range, below average in just over half a year. ::::: ::::: Your doctor is dangerously misinformed, and so is anyone who ::::: focuses on your LDL or TC outside the context of ratios and tells ::::: you to alter your diet. ::::: ::::: Susan ::: ::: Thanks, Susan.  After spending most of the day reading up on the ::: Internet, I have come to the same conclusion as you have mentioned, ::: and also what Rick mentioned in another post. ::: ::: It’s funny, because now I feel so much better than I did a few days ::: ago! Ignorance is a dangerous thing.  Now, for some time on the ::: bike!  :)

Response:

Question:

Diet is the third most important factor for cardiac health. The first- genetic background- you can do much about. Second is the amount of aerobic activity you do a week. Chubby exercisers have healthier carivascular systems than slim non-exercisers.

Response:

I’ve never tried it myself. Don’t imagine I ever will either!!!

This from a guy who eats "proggies" ??? "Make no mistake about it! Without humor, freedom would drive you insane." Bill               I am so cool, that sheep count ME before they go to sleep. http://hometown.aol.com/mrrobottow/

Response:

Incidentally, the surgeons did state that Atkins’ coronary arteries are extremely free of plaque/atherioscelosis…

Now I wonder why that had to be stated? ) Surgeons are excellent businessmen I suppose… Jarno — The woods are lovely, dark and deep But I have promises to keep And miles to go before I sleep And miles to go before I sleep.  - Robert Frost

Response:

Agreed. It was rather flippant, and I didn’t even know he had an apparent pre-existing problem. Still, the Atkins diet is very careless with it’s fat allotments. I apologize.

You didn’t offend me, I just know the arguements supporting the diet, and I expected you to be ‘reminded’ of them.  I actually tried this diet, with good success a few years ago.  I lost weight and all my acid reflux problems went away.  But I am weak and can’t live without my pizza, pasta, etc.  Now I use running and lifting to stay in shape.

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Incidentally, the surgeons did state that Atkins’ coronary arteries are extremely free of plaque/atherioscelosis… Now I wonder why that had to be stated? ) Surgeons are excellent businessmen I suppose… Jarno — The woods are lovely, dark and deep But I have promises to keep And miles to go before I sleep And miles to go before I sleep.  - Robert Frost

Well, a good reporter might actually have asked about placque and arteriosclerosis.  Oh.  Scratch that.  There aren’t (m)any good reporters. Jeff

Response:

I saw Atkins on TV a few days ago.  He is not a good AD himself, I thought he looked okay for an 80 year old, then they said he is 69.

He’s 71 years old, out of the hospital less than a week after his heart stops beating, no sign of coronary blockage (as evidenced by an angiogram done at Columbia Pres. in Manhattan), no myocardial infarction (dead cardiac muscle tissue due to restricted blood supply) and making televison appearances.  We should all be so lucky to be as resilient when we get to be that age. http://www.cnn.com/2002/HEALTH/diet.fitness/04/25/atkins.diet/index.html The next link is a link to the press release from Atkins’ site.  The press release gives some general information about the kinds of heart diseases involved and/or not involved in this episode.  If you do not wish to view other information and commercial material regarding Atkins, please do not link to it. http://atkinscenter.com/dev/Archive/2002/4/25-466719.html They say making goals public increases the chance of realizing them.  My application for the 2002 NYC marathon went in yesterday.  This year I’ll be ready. Healthy running. Patrick

Response:

Of course the official statement denies the heart attack had anything to do with the diet.   I think the money he rakes in from bovine America would slowly dry up if that info were to reach the general dieting population.  But who am I to talk….I’m the one who invented the "Fudge &  Whiskey Diet".   Sincerely, Dr. Thrope

Response:

The release also indicated that the attack was not related to the Atkins diet. Well after all he is still alive and he and his estate are dependent on the income. Even if he dropped dead from clogged pipes I would not expect him to admit it. Ok, I agree, I’m a skeptic.Let’s see if he doesn’t go on a Pritican or Ornish Diet.

I saw Atkins on TV a few days ago.  He is not a good AD himself, I thought he looked okay for an 80 year old, then they said he is 69. Karen

Response:

<< Incidentally, the surgeons did state that Atkins’ coronary arteries are extremely free of plaque/atherioscelosis… THUS SAYETH WithBACON Could you site your source??  Which surgeons?? If the diet is good for us that’s Great . I for one have a big Problem with anybody selling a Diet plan Based on theories that will KILL people years before their time.  No Matter what or who’s plan it is.   Bohanna

Response:

Agreed. It was rather flippant, and I didn’t even know he had an apparent pre-existing problem. Still, the Atkins diet is very careless with it’s fat allotments. I apologize. You didn’t offend me, I just know the arguements supporting the diet, and I expected you to be ‘reminded’ of them.  I actually tried this diet, with good success a few years ago.  I lost weight and all my acid reflux problems went away.

So, what’s the quantitative analysis for this? But I am weak and can’t live without my pizza, pasta, etc.  Now I use running and lifting to stay in shape.

Reflux and pasta don’t seem to go well together…and high fat is supposed to be avoided.

Response:

Like most things that involved fat, it was very tasty and made other really boring food great. This was 40 years ago just outside of Boston. My dad was from Nova Scotia and the neighbors in both flats next door were Newfie fisherman working out of Boston. We’ d pour the fat and crispy cubs over mashed potatoes, cod fish cakes, whatever. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – The Newfs love that shit I’ve never tried it myself. Don’t imagine I ever will either!!! LOL — David Nova Scotia, Canada.

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Agreed. It was rather flippant, and I didn’t even know he had an apparent pre-existing problem. Still, the Atkins diet is very careless with it’s fat allotments. I apologize. Careless?  It doesn’t put limits on them at all.   All the pork rinds you can eat.  I lost 40 lbs on the Atkins diet, but I’m not sure that I buy all the hipe (and on the other hand, several years ago I went on a low fat, high fiber, no cholesterol diet and it made no substantial difference in my Cholesterol (and my HDL:LDL ratio was even worse) of 245 and 6.2 or so. Lost 40 pounds and trained six months for a marathon and my numbers are now 220 and 4.1

My dietary philosophy? (1) Diet = nutrition meaning whole unprocessed foods (we eat to live not live to eat and if people practiced that we wouldn’t need "diets"…) (2) Exercise = weight loss, i.e., excess body fat. (3) Nutrition plus exercise = health regardless of body type I think regular exercise has more effect on such things as cholesterol and high blood pressure than any diet. But that’s just me.

Response:

he was on the Today show this morning and said it was viral. E

Response:

The release also indicated that the attack was not related to the Atkins diet.

Well after all he is still alive and he and his estate are dependent on the income. Even if he dropped dead from clogged pipes I would not expect him to admit it. Ok, I agree, I’m a skeptic.Let’s see if he doesn’t go on a Pritican or Ornish Diet. — Caveat Lector "the further you go outside, the further you go inside" – B. McKibben Doug Freese

Response:

Incidentally, the surgeons did state that Atkins’ coronary arteries are extremely free of plaque/atherioscelosis… THUS SAYETH WithBACON

Response:

Agreed. It was rather flippant, and I didn’t even know he had an apparent pre-existing problem. Still, the Atkins diet is very careless with it’s fat allotments. I apologize.

Careless?  It doesn’t put limits on them at all.   All the pork rinds you can eat.  I lost 40 lbs on the Atkins diet, but I’m not sure that I buy all the hipe (and on the other hand, several years ago I went on a low fat, high fiber, no cholesterol diet and it made no substantial difference in my Cholesterol (and my HDL:LDL ratio was even worse) of 245 and 6.2 or so. Lost 40 pounds and trained six months for a marathon and my numbers are now 220 and 4.1

Response:

Agreed. It was rather flippant, and I didn’t even know he had an apparent pre-existing problem. Still, the Atkins diet is very careless with it’s fat allotments. I apologize. — David (in Hamilton, Ont) "And the plaster dented from your fist In the hall where you had your first kiss Reminds you that the memories will fade."                                dashboard confessional http://www.angelfire.com/nc/swstudio/home.html – – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – The release also indicated that the attack was not related to the Atkins diet. LOL…. of course not. We all know that eating a high-fat diet has no relation to heart attacks. Pork rind, anyone? I can’t wait to see what you stirred up with that comment….

Response:

The release also indicated that the attack was not related to the Atkins diet. LOL…. of course not. We all know that eating a high-fat diet has no relation to heart attacks. Pork rind, anyone?

I can’t wait to see what you stirred up with that comment….

Response:

  The release also indicated that the attack was not related to the Atkins diet.

LOL…. of course not. We all know that eating a high-fat diet has no relation to heart attacks. Pork rind, anyone? — David (in Hamilton, Ont) "And the plaster dented from your fist In the hall where you had your first kiss Reminds you that the memories will fade."                                dashboard confessional http://www.angelfire.com/nc/swstudio/home.html –

Response:

Just heard on CNN That Dr. Atkins had a heart attack. Anyone heard any other details?

Apparently he has a degenerative malfunction with his heart that was diagnosed several years ago….there is some info on cnn.com about it

Response:

Just heard on CNN That Dr. Atkins had a heart attack. Anyone heard any other details?

Response:

NEW YORK (CNN) — Nutrition expert and author Dr. Robert Atkins, creator of the high-protein, low-carbohydrate "Atkins Diet," was released Wednesday from hospital care and is resting well after suffering from a cardiac arrest, according to a statement released by the doctor’s spokespeople. Atkins, 71, went into cardiac arrest during breakfast last Thursday. He was quickly revived by an associate and taken to New York’s Weill Cornell Medical Center. Atkins suffered cardiac arrest related to an infection of the heart. The statement added that Atkins has been suffering from this illness, which weakens the heart’s ability to pump blood, for two years. "Up until today, this has been a personal and private family matter for Atkins. It is unfortunate for the family that this has not remained so," said Paul Wolff, Chief Executive Officer of The Atkins Companies. The release also indicated that the attack was not related to the Atkins diet.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Just heard on CNN That Dr. Atkins had a heart attack. Anyone heard any other details?

Response:

Question:

Yippee, Yahoo, our friend Robert is home and healthier!  (Myra, Myra, come quick, we need a happy HAPPY dance and you do it the best.) Robert, dear friend, you’re the best. We do care about you indeed. I’m so glad you’re out of the situation and back where you’re the most comfortable. There’s no place like home, indeed. Now just keep getting healthier! YAY!!!

Response:

roasted chestnuts on an open fire and quipped: Greetings My Friends,    I love you guys.  The outpouring of support, condolence, and empathy has been overwhelming.  

<snip of a very neat post! Hi Robert! I don’t know you, having not been around the group for quite awhile, but I am so glad you are doing better and that you "survived" your hospitalization.  Hospitals are total booby-traps for low-carbers…I’m a nurse, so I know.  If I had a dartboard, it would have the faces of the know-it-all dieticians at my hospital on it. Looking forward to getting to know you in the coming weeks and months. Cheryl ~~~I’m what I am — no more, no less…sometimes a saint,           sometimes a mess.~~~  (Mary Sullivan)

Response:

Dear Robert. I’m so glad to see you are back and in good health.  As the sister of a nurse in the hospital, I agree you can’t change their minds about foods. I’m glad you are back on the WOE now that you are released and I will be looking forward to seeing you shrink before our eyes.  You will make it and live longer than you ever thought before.  Hugs, and prayers off to you. — The original Serena 320/159/145 28W/10/6-8 http://y42.photos.yahoo.com/gweeble_1998 – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Greetings My Friends,    I love you guys.  The outpouring of support, condolence, and empathy has been overwhelming.  I find it difficult to put into words how much I appreciate all of your efforts and kind words.  To say I was a little awestruck when Myra and Connie tracked me down and called me at the hospital, would be an understatement, indeed.  Mr. Lee Rodgers, you literally brought tears of joy to my eyes when I awoke and read the message attached the beautiful flowers you sent.  It truly touched my heart to be on the receiving end of such a warm, unselfish, and sincere gesture of human compassion.  As soon as I read your name at the end of the "get well wish", I wept with the comforting feeling that I must be Blessed to have such wonderful people in my life.  When you all replied to my initial "newbie" post, many of you appeared to be very caring and compassionate folks, and I am SO grateful that my instincts were accurate.  You are the real deal.  I want you to know that your advice, discussions, rants, and scientific citings have had an impact on my life.  I have no idea where I would be today had it not been for ASDLC. For the first time in several years, I feel that I do not have to concede to the fact that I WILL die prematurely as a direct result of being fat.  I have been living with this "reality" for so long that I still cannot help thinking, sometimes, that this must be too good to be true and the doctors may be right with their surgery recommendations. When many of you congratulated and even praised me for being "courageous" when I told and showed all, I felt like it was undeserved. I still do not see how I showed courage.  I was simply reacting to fear.  I was scheduled for a surgical procedure that I knew was permanent, wrought with terrible possible side effects, and, seemingly,  I was out of alternative options.  When I came across the low carb WOE, and subsequently this group, I felt I had nothing to lose by posting those ‘revealing’ posts (yes, I know, except fat).  You could call it a cry for help, but, nonetheless, my low carb journey began as a last ditch effort to avoid undergoing the surgery and, to be honest, with halfhearted confidence that it really would work.  That belief, though, was short lived.  As my innate desire to seek knowledge beaconed me to learn more of the science behind the theory, I quickly came to believe that the process of metabolism I was studying was indeed the way my body handled carbohydrates.  Again, without the depth and breadth of your collective knowledge base and the often simple questions that lead me to find the answers, I have been able to adopt and accept this as a new and invigorating lifestyle.  Despite the relentless attempts by the doctors, dieticians, and nutritionists to educate me in healthy nutrition, I stood my ground.  I must admit that I did opt to avoid any conflict by appearing receptive to their recommendations, although I termed my situation as ‘forced compliance’.  After 2 days of refusing all the food except the egg-substitute crap at breakfast (1/4 cup), the 2 oz. portions of lean meat or fish with lunch and dinner, and any low glycemic fruits and veggies, I became the focus of a ‘re-education’ campaign by the ‘learned ones’.  The RD asked why I would not eat the bread, milk, oatmeal, cream of wheat, cold cereals, watermelon, grapes, bananas, applesauce, regular Jell-O, pudding, noodles, rice, potatoes, carrots, peas, corn, well you get the picture, and I responded by saying "they are all evil poison to my body.  Why would I want to continue to eat the same foods that got me this fat?"  As soon as she began her spiel about the "food pyramid" and how it wasn’t the carbs that got me fat, but rather unhealthy fats and my behavior that led to overeating and all the other misinformation you guys told me these ‘experts’ routinely tell us, I realized any attempt to convert them would be futile.  Amazingly, they must think highly of their ability to persuade, since they never questioned my seemingly overnight reversal to their way of thinking about nutrition.  I gave up the fight.  I overheard a nurse say to another nurse who was documenting my status on my chart that all she could do was report it to the doctors and let them handle it.  I didn’t want to deal with that, so I decided to comply with the prescribed meal plan.  This wasn’t all based on principle, mind you, I was damn hungry by this point.  My prescribed meal plan was and still is a 2000 calorie, low sodium (2 gms), low cholesterol diet consisting of 15 servings of carbs (grain group, fruit & veggies group & dairy), 6 servings of protein (6 oz. meat, fish, eggs(3/week), low-fat cheese, peanut butter), and 4 servings (4 tsps.) fats (preferably margarine). Broken down by meal: breakfast (2, 1, 1), lunch (5, 2, 1), dinner (5, 2, 1), and night time snack (3, 1, 1).  After eating this way for a few meals, I was not surprised that I was craving carbs and anticipating the next meal, almost obsessively.  There is very little to look forward to while on ‘bed rest’ orders other than the pleasure of a tasty meal (imagine that), which seems to be the favorite pastime of many patients, primarily elderly folks, but I surely did not enjoy the feeling.  In short order, the food never seemed to be enough.  I felt I could scarf down 3 or 4 times the amount I was being served.  Very little satiety. I’ve never been lactose intolerant, but the skim milk appeared to be the cause of abdominal cramps and a quick one-time loose stool following the meals.  This may have been due to the antibiotic, though, as I was given the IV just prior to breakfast and dinner, with the other dose at bedtime.  Interestingly, the bedtime dose had no ill effects, so I think it was the milk.  The last day there I skipped the milk, but that was the day I was switched to oral antibiotics.  I felt tired after eating also.  Began napping, which all but disappeared while low carbing.    The in-hospital physical therapy evaluated me and, to my delight, agreed that I do not need to go to a rehab to be reconditioned (factory refurb, right Myra?).  They did insist that I have a home health nurse for awhile, since I still have trouble with stairs and they want to be sure I continue to treat the two or three small decubitus sores remaining on my left thigh.  I am also getting a brand new ‘bariatric bed’ so I will be able to stop sleeping in my livingroom chair and a new walker, which I won’t use, but they insist I need it "just in case".  I have a king size bed that cost me a small fortune that I want to keep. It is the most comfortable bed I ever slept on before lying flat began causing back and hip pain.  Hopefully, I will one day soon be able to rest ‘normally’ again.  I’m trying to figure out where to put it for now.  I may just leave it disassembled in the room, leaning against one wall.  I have a large bedroom.    I was discharged late Monday evening, about 10:00PM.  I came home and literally had to fight off the urges to indulge in something carby to eat.  I wanted to dive into a plate or two of spaghetti with a passion.  Instead, I fried two pork chops, opened a can of spinach, and finished the plate off with a few black olives and a small chunk of cheddar cheese.  It helped quell the cravings.  I read some of your posts regarding the manhunt for me and the replies after I was tracked down then crashed for the night.  I am very touched by all your kind words and efforts to help me out.  Historically, I have been more than a little reluctant to accept help or have anyone make a fuss over me, but it does feel good to know people care.  In a sense, your concern has had a much greater affect on me than the support from my family and close friends.  I am, after all, a complete stranger with whom you have had limited knowledge regarding my character and have only been provided selective information about my life experiences.  Of course, I do understand that many of you consider yourselves to be able to see through the BS and tell when someone is being sincere.  You ARE quite skilled in this as it is true I AM an intelligent, caring, friendly, helpful, all around great guy.  And just a bit conceited ).    I am now home, sitting in my easy chair, writing this short note to y’all.  Had an antiestablishment unhealthy egg and sausage breakfast. I’ll be back on track in no time.  I am taking oral antibiotics 4X/day (Keflex 500mg), a diuretic once/day (Lasix 40mg), BP medication 2X/day (Vasotec 10mg), and Silvadine(sp.) ointment for the sores.  Actually, I am not taking the BP meds nor did I in the hospital.  I pretended to take them then slipped them into my travel bag.  My BP is OK.  Of course it was elevated when I was admitted.  I was nervous, a little scared, tired from walking from my van to my room on the 3rd floor, and in pain from the leg sores.  The reading was down significantly by the next morning and consistently since, except when my vitals were taken just after I had blood drawn or my IV heparin lock changed.  They think it stabilized due to the medication, but I know better.  It makes sense to me.  I will not take something that I feel is unnecessary.  I have an office visit on Thursday with my PCP and know the focus will be on rescheduling

… read more »

Response:

Glad to hear you’re home.  Hope things go smoothly on your road to recovery and getting back into the LC swing of things. Greetings My Friends,    I love you guys.  The outpouring of support, condolence, and empathy has been overwhelming.  I find it difficult to put into words how much I appreciate all of your efforts and kind words.  To say I was a little awestruck when Myra and Connie tracked me down and called me at the

If nothing else, we are a determined bunch. <G hospital, would be an understatement, indeed.  Mr. Lee Rodgers, you literally brought tears of joy to my eyes when I awoke and read the message attached the beautiful flowers you sent.  It truly touched my heart

****snip****

Response:

Short note?  This is a novella!  And a darned good one too, makes for great reading.  I’m glad you survived the onslaught of sugary non-satiating hospital foods and are back home, feeling better and getting back to basics.  I look forward to reading more of your progress. Peace, Ezr

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Greetings My Friends,    I am now home, sitting in my easy chair, writing this short note to y’all.  Had an antiestablishment unhealthy egg and sausage breakfast. I’ll be back on track in no time.  

Response:

Robert, I’m glad you’re home!  We’ve all been rooting for you! Glad you’re back home with us! suzi_cream_cheese

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Robert !!!  I am SOOOOO glad you are home and doing better !!  YAY !! Not to mention firmly in control of your own food choices once again. Yes, you were a total stranger to us but I do believe we’ve officially "adopted" you as one of our own.  ;-) Here’s a big GIANT cyber {{{{{{HUG}}}}}} for ya .  Keep the faith my man !! We know you can do it and each and every one of us here will support you 200% !! ConnieMS 244/163/145 http://pages.ivillage.com/alcon70/conniems/ ASDL-C Low Carb Shindig – Sept. 14-16, 2001 St. Louis, MO www.jaxworld.com/lowcarb/stlouis.html To be added to the info/mailing list send your email addy to: Greetings My Friends,     I love you guys.  The outpouring of support, condolence, and empathy has been overwhelming.  I find it difficult to put into words how much I appreciate all of your efforts and kind words.  To say I was a little awestruck when Myra and Connie tracked me down and called me at the hospital, would be an understatement, indeed.  Mr. Lee Rodgers, you literally brought tears of joy to my eyes when I awoke and read the message attached the beautiful flowers you sent.  It truly touched my heart to be on the receiving end of such a warm, unselfish, and sincere gesture of human compassion.  As soon as I read your name at the end of the "get well wish", I wept with the comforting feeling that I must be Blessed to have such wonderful people in my life.  When you all replied to my initial "newbie" post, many of you appeared to be very caring and compassionate folks, and I am SO grateful that my instincts were accurate.  You are the real deal.  I want you to know that your advice, discussions, rants, and scientific citings have had an impact on my life.  I have no idea where I would be today had it not been for ASDLC. For the first time in several years, I feel that I do not have to concede to the fact that I WILL die prematurely as a direct result of being fat.  I have been living with this "reality" for so long that I still cannot help thinking, sometimes, that this must be too good to be true and the doctors may be right with their surgery recommendations. When many of you congratulated and even praised me for being "courageous" when I told and showed all, I felt like it was undeserved. I still do not see how I showed courage.  I was simply reacting to fear.  I was scheduled for a surgical procedure that I knew was permanent, wrought with terrible possible side effects, and, seemingly,  I was out of alternative options.  When I came across the low carb WOE, and subsequently this group, I felt I had nothing to lose by posting those ‘revealing’ posts (yes, I know, except fat).  You could call it a cry for help, but, nonetheless, my low carb journey began as a last ditch effort to avoid undergoing the surgery and, to be honest, with halfhearted confidence that it really would work.  That belief, though, was short lived.  As my innate desire to seek knowledge beaconed me to learn more of the science behind the theory, I quickly came to believe that the process of metabolism I was studying was indeed the way my body handled carbohydrates.  Again, without the depth and breadth of your collective knowledge base and the often simple questions that lead me to find the answers, I have been able to adopt and accept this as a new and invigorating lifestyle.  Despite the relentless attempts by the doctors, dieticians, and nutritionists to educate me in healthy nutrition, I stood my ground.  I must admit that I did opt to avoid any conflict by appearing receptive to their recommendations, although I termed my situation as ‘forced compliance’.  After 2 days of refusing all the food except the egg-substitute crap at breakfast (1/4 cup), the 2 oz. portions of lean meat or fish with lunch and dinner, and any low glycemic fruits and veggies, I became the focus of a ‘re-education’ campaign by the ‘learned ones’.  The RD asked why I would not eat the bread, milk, oatmeal, cream of wheat, cold cereals, watermelon, grapes, bananas, applesauce, regular Jell-O, pudding, noodles, rice, potatoes, carrots, peas, corn, well you get the picture, and I responded by saying "they are all evil poison to my body.  Why would I want to continue to eat the same foods that got me this fat?"  As soon as she began her spiel about the "food pyramid" and how it wasn’t the carbs that got me fat, but rather unhealthy fats and my behavior that led to overeating and all the other misinformation you guys told me these ‘experts’ routinely tell us, I realized any attempt to convert them would be futile.  Amazingly, they must think highly of their ability to persuade, since they never questioned my seemingly overnight reversal to their way of thinking about nutrition.  I gave up the fight.  I overheard a nurse say to another nurse who was documenting my status on my chart that all she could do was report it to the doctors and let them handle it.  I didn’t want to deal with that, so I decided to comply with the prescribed meal plan.  This wasn’t all based on principle, mind you, I was damn hungry by this point.  My prescribed meal plan was and still is a 2000 calorie, low sodium (2 gms), low cholesterol diet consisting of 15 servings of carbs (grain group, fruit & veggies group & dairy), 6 servings of protein (6 oz. meat, fish, eggs(3/week), low-fat cheese, peanut butter), and 4 servings (4 tsps.) fats (preferably margarine). Broken down by meal: breakfast (2, 1, 1), lunch (5, 2, 1), dinner (5, 2, 1), and night time snack (3, 1, 1).  After eating this way for a few meals, I was not surprised that I was craving carbs and anticipating the next meal, almost obsessively.  There is very little to look forward to while on ‘bed rest’ orders other than the pleasure of a tasty meal (imagine that), which seems to be the favorite pastime of many patients, primarily elderly folks, but I surely did not enjoy the feeling.  In short order, the food never seemed to be enough.  I felt I could scarf down 3 or 4 times the amount I was being served.  Very little satiety. I’ve never been lactose intolerant, but the skim milk appeared to be the cause of abdominal cramps and a quick one-time loose stool following the meals.  This may have been due to the antibiotic, though, as I was given the IV just prior to breakfast and dinner, with the other dose at bedtime.  Interestingly, the bedtime dose had no ill effects, so I think it was the milk.  The last day there I skipped the milk, but that was the day I was switched to oral antibiotics.  I felt tired after eating also.  Began napping, which all but disappeared while low carbing.     The in-hospital physical therapy evaluated me and, to my delight, agreed that I do not need to go to a rehab to be reconditioned (factory refurb, right Myra?).  They did insist that I have a home health nurse for awhile, since I still have trouble with stairs and they want to be sure I continue to treat the two or three small decubitus sores remaining on my left thigh.  I am also getting a brand new ‘bariatric bed’ so I will be able to stop sleeping in my livingroom chair and a new walker, which I won’t use, but they insist I need it "just in case".  I have a king size bed that cost me a small fortune that I want to keep. It is the most comfortable bed I ever slept on before lying flat began causing back and hip pain.  Hopefully, I will one day soon be able to rest ‘normally’ again.  I’m trying to figure out where to put it for now.  I may just leave it disassembled in the room, leaning against one wall.  I have a large bedroom.     I was discharged late Monday evening, about 10:00PM.  I came home and literally had to fight off the urges to indulge in something carby to eat.  I wanted to dive into a plate or two of spaghetti with a passion.  Instead, I fried two pork chops, opened a can of spinach, and finished the plate off with a few black olives and a small chunk of cheddar cheese.  It helped quell the cravings.  I read some of your posts regarding the manhunt for me and the replies after I was tracked down then crashed for the night.  I am very touched by all your kind words and efforts to help me out.  Historically, I have been more than a little reluctant to accept help or have anyone make a fuss over me, but it does feel good to know people care.  In a sense, your concern has had a much greater affect on me than the support from my family and close friends.  I am, after all, a complete stranger with whom you have had limited knowledge regarding my character and have only been provided selective information about my life experiences.  Of course, I do understand that many of you consider yourselves to be able to see through the BS and tell when someone is being sincere.  You ARE quite skilled in this as it is true I AM an intelligent, caring, friendly, helpful, all around great guy.  And just a bit conceited ).     I am now home, sitting in my easy chair, writing this short note to y’all.  Had an antiestablishment unhealthy egg and sausage breakfast. I’ll be back on track in no time.  I am taking oral antibiotics 4X/day (Keflex 500mg),

… read more »

Response:

ROBERT!! you are home much earlier than expected which either means you did very well, or you were such a pain in the butt they wanted you out of there. I have to say by all accounts you _are_ incredibly brave, intelligent, caring, friendly, helpful and all around great guy.   Truly,  And that is why this group cares about you the way we do.  You also have a great talent for writing, and have given us the opportunity to really share a bit in your life – and thats something rather precious on the oh-so-anonymous internet! ONE HUNDRED AND FOUR POUNDS!!   WHOO HOO, I don’t care how much is fluid, that is truly amazing.  You are Amazing!!  Welcome back!! — -Beth, Pseudo usenet cop BikeE FX, AT, RANS gliss and Trek R200 Anchorage, Alaska

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Greetings My Friends,     I love you guys.  The outpouring of support, condolence, and empathy has been overwhelming.  I find it difficult to put into words how much I appreciate all of your efforts and kind words.  To say I was a little awestruck when Myra and Connie tracked me down and called me at the hospital, would be an understatement, indeed.  Mr. Lee Rodgers, you literally brought tears of joy to my eyes when I awoke and read the message attached the beautiful flowers you sent.  It truly touched my heart to be on the receiving end of such a warm, unselfish, and sincere gesture of human compassion.  As soon as I read your name at the end of the "get well wish", I wept with the comforting feeling that I must be Blessed to have such wonderful people in my life.  When you all replied to my initial "newbie" post, many of you appeared to be very caring and compassionate folks, and I am SO grateful that my instincts were accurate.  You are the real deal.  I want you to know that your advice, discussions, rants, and scientific citings have had an impact on my life.  I have no idea where I would be today had it not been for ASDLC. For the first time in several years, I feel that I do not have to concede to the fact that I WILL die prematurely as a direct result of being fat.  I have been living with this "reality" for so long that I still cannot help thinking, sometimes, that this must be too good to be true and the doctors may be right with their surgery recommendations. When many of you congratulated and even praised me for being "courageous" when I told and showed all, I felt like it was undeserved. I still do not see how I showed courage.  I was simply reacting to fear.  I was scheduled for a surgical procedure that I knew was permanent, wrought with terrible possible side effects, and, seemingly,  I was out of alternative options.  When I came across the low carb WOE, and subsequently this group, I felt I had nothing to lose by posting those ‘revealing’ posts (yes, I know, except fat).  You could call it a cry for help, but, nonetheless, my low carb journey began as a last ditch effort to avoid undergoing the surgery and, to be honest, with halfhearted confidence that it really would work.  That belief, though, was short lived.  As my innate desire to seek knowledge beaconed me to learn more of the science behind the theory, I quickly came to believe that the process of metabolism I was studying was indeed the way my body handled carbohydrates.  Again, without the depth and breadth of your collective knowledge base and the often simple questions that lead me to find the answers, I have been able to adopt and accept this as a new and invigorating lifestyle.  Despite the relentless attempts by the doctors, dieticians, and nutritionists to educate me in healthy nutrition, I stood my ground.  I must admit that I did opt to avoid any conflict by appearing receptive to their recommendations, although I termed my situation as ‘forced compliance’.  After 2 days of refusing all the food except the egg-substitute crap at breakfast (1/4 cup), the 2 oz. portions of lean meat or fish with lunch and dinner, and any low glycemic fruits and veggies, I became the focus of a ‘re-education’ campaign by the ‘learned ones’.  The RD asked why I would not eat the bread, milk, oatmeal, cream of wheat, cold cereals, watermelon, grapes, bananas, applesauce, regular Jell-O, pudding, noodles, rice, potatoes, carrots, peas, corn, well you get the picture, and I responded by saying "they are all evil poison to my body.  Why would I want to continue to eat the same foods that got me this fat?"  As soon as she began her spiel about the "food pyramid" and how it wasn’t the carbs that got me fat, but rather unhealthy fats and my behavior that led to overeating and all the other misinformation you guys told me these ‘experts’ routinely tell us, I realized any attempt to convert them would be futile.  Amazingly, they must think highly of their ability to persuade, since they never questioned my seemingly overnight reversal to their way of thinking about nutrition.  I gave up the fight.  I overheard a nurse say to another nurse who was documenting my status on my chart that all she could do was report it to the doctors and let them handle it.  I didn’t want to deal with that, so I decided to comply with the prescribed meal plan.  This wasn’t all based on principle, mind you, I was damn hungry by this point.  My prescribed meal plan was and still is a 2000 calorie, low sodium (2 gms), low cholesterol diet consisting of 15 servings of carbs (grain group, fruit & veggies group & dairy), 6 servings of protein (6 oz. meat, fish, eggs(3/week), low-fat cheese, peanut butter), and 4 servings (4 tsps.) fats (preferably margarine). Broken down by meal: breakfast (2, 1, 1), lunch (5, 2, 1), dinner (5, 2, 1), and night time snack (3, 1, 1).  After eating this way for a few meals, I was not surprised that I was craving carbs and anticipating the next meal, almost obsessively.  There is very little to look forward to while on ‘bed rest’ orders other than the pleasure of a tasty meal (imagine that), which seems to be the favorite pastime of many patients, primarily elderly folks, but I surely did not enjoy the feeling.  In short order, the food never seemed to be enough.  I felt I could scarf down 3 or 4 times the amount I was being served.  Very little satiety. I’ve never been lactose intolerant, but the skim milk appeared to be the cause of abdominal cramps and a quick one-time loose stool following the meals.  This may have been due to the antibiotic, though, as I was given the IV just prior to breakfast and dinner, with the other dose at bedtime.  Interestingly, the bedtime dose had no ill effects, so I think it was the milk.  The last day there I skipped the milk, but that was the day I was switched to oral antibiotics.  I felt tired after eating also.  Began napping, which all but disappeared while low carbing.     The in-hospital physical therapy evaluated me and, to my delight, agreed that I do not need to go to a rehab to be reconditioned (factory refurb, right Myra?).  They did insist that I have a home health nurse for awhile, since I still have trouble with stairs and they want to be sure I continue to treat the two or three small decubitus sores remaining on my left thigh.  I am also getting a brand new ‘bariatric bed’ so I will be able to stop sleeping in my livingroom chair and a new walker, which I won’t use, but they insist I need it "just in case".  I have a king size bed that cost me a small fortune that I want to keep. It is the most comfortable bed I ever slept on before lying flat began causing back and hip pain.  Hopefully, I will one day soon be able to rest ‘normally’ again.  I’m trying to figure out where to put it for now.  I may just leave it disassembled in the room, leaning against one wall.  I have a large bedroom.     I was discharged late Monday evening, about 10:00PM.  I came home and literally had to fight off the urges to indulge in something carby to eat.  I wanted to dive into a plate or two of spaghetti with a passion.  Instead, I fried two pork chops, opened a can of spinach, and finished the plate off with a few black olives and a small chunk of cheddar cheese.  It helped quell the cravings.  I read some of your posts regarding the manhunt for me and the replies after I was tracked down then crashed for the night.  I am very touched by all your kind words and efforts to help me out.  Historically, I have been more than a little reluctant to accept help or have anyone make a fuss over me, but it does feel good to know people care.  In a sense, your concern has had a much greater affect on me than the support from my family and close friends.  I am, after all, a complete stranger with whom you have had limited knowledge regarding my character and have only been provided selective information about my life experiences.  Of course, I do understand that many of you consider yourselves to be able to see through the BS and tell when someone is being sincere.  You ARE quite skilled in this as it is true I AM an intelligent, caring, friendly, helpful, all around great guy.  And just a bit conceited ).     I am now home, sitting in my easy chair, writing this short note to y’all.  Had an antiestablishment unhealthy egg and sausage breakfast. I’ll be back on track in no time.  I am taking oral antibiotics 4X/day (Keflex 500mg), a diuretic once/day (Lasix 40mg), BP medication 2X/day (Vasotec 10mg), and Silvadine(sp.) ointment for the sores.  Actually, I am not taking the BP meds nor did I in the hospital.  I pretended to take them then slipped them into my travel bag.  My BP is OK.  Of course it was elevated when I was admitted.  I was nervous, a little scared, tired from walking from my van to my room on the 3rd floor, and in pain

… read more »

Response:

amen.  welcome back robert

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Robert !!!  I am SOOOOO glad you are home and doing better !!  YAY !! Not to mention firmly in control of your own food choices once again. Yes, you were a total stranger to us but I do believe we’ve officially "adopted" you as one of our own.  ;-) Here’s a big GIANT cyber {{{{{{HUG}}}}}} for ya .  Keep the faith my man !! We know you can do it and each and every one of us here will support you 200% !! ConnieMS 244/163/145 http://pages.ivillage.com/alcon70/conniems/ ASDL-C Low Carb Shindig – Sept. 14-16, 2001 St. Louis, MO www.jaxworld.com/lowcarb/stlouis.html To be added to the info/mailing list send your email addy to: Greetings My Friends,     I love you guys.  The outpouring of support, condolence, and empathy has been overwhelming.  I find it difficult to put into words how much I appreciate all of your efforts and kind words.  To say I was a little awestruck when Myra and Connie tracked me down and called me at the hospital, would be an understatement, indeed.  Mr. Lee Rodgers, you literally brought tears of joy to my eyes when I awoke and read the message attached the beautiful flowers you sent.  It truly touched my heart to be on the receiving end of such a warm, unselfish, and sincere gesture of human compassion.  As soon as I read your name at the end of the "get well wish", I wept with the comforting feeling that I must be Blessed to have such wonderful people in my life.  When you all replied to my initial "newbie" post, many of you appeared to be very caring and compassionate folks, and I am SO grateful that my instincts were accurate.  You are the real deal.  I want you to know that your advice, discussions, rants, and scientific citings have had an impact on my life.  I have no idea where I would be today had it not been for ASDLC. For the first time in several years, I feel that I do not have to concede to the fact that I WILL die prematurely as a direct result of being fat.  I have been living with this "reality" for so long that I still cannot help thinking, sometimes, that this must be too good to be true and the doctors may be right with their surgery recommendations. When many of you congratulated and even praised me for being "courageous" when I told and showed all, I felt like it was undeserved. I still do not see how I showed courage.  I was simply reacting to fear.  I was scheduled for a surgical procedure that I knew was permanent, wrought with terrible possible side effects, and, seemingly,  I was out of alternative options.  When I came across the low carb WOE, and subsequently this group, I felt I had nothing to lose by posting those ‘revealing’ posts (yes, I know, except fat).  You could call it a cry for help, but, nonetheless, my low carb journey began as a last ditch effort to avoid undergoing the surgery and, to be honest, with halfhearted confidence that it really would work.  That belief, though, was short lived.  As my innate desire to seek knowledge beaconed me to learn more of the science behind the theory, I quickly came to believe that the process of metabolism I was studying was indeed the way my body handled carbohydrates.  Again, without the depth and breadth of your collective knowledge base and the often simple questions that lead me to find the answers, I have been able to adopt and accept this as a new and invigorating lifestyle.  Despite the relentless attempts by the doctors, dieticians, and nutritionists to educate me in healthy nutrition, I stood my ground.  I must admit that I did opt to avoid any conflict by appearing receptive to their recommendations, although I termed my situation as ‘forced compliance’.  After 2 days of refusing all the food except the egg-substitute crap at breakfast (1/4 cup), the 2 oz. portions of lean meat or fish with lunch and dinner, and any low glycemic fruits and veggies, I became the focus of a ‘re-education’ campaign by the ‘learned ones’.  The RD asked why I would not eat the bread, milk, oatmeal, cream of wheat, cold cereals, watermelon, grapes, bananas, applesauce, regular Jell-O, pudding, noodles, rice, potatoes, carrots, peas, corn, well you get the picture, and I responded by saying "they are all evil poison to my body.  Why would I want to continue to eat the same foods that got me this fat?"  As soon as she began her spiel about the "food pyramid" and how it wasn’t the carbs that got me fat, but rather unhealthy fats and my behavior that led to overeating and all the other misinformation you guys told me these ‘experts’ routinely tell us, I realized any attempt to convert them would be futile.  Amazingly, they must think highly of their ability to persuade, since they never questioned my seemingly overnight reversal to their way of thinking about nutrition.  I gave up the fight.  I overheard a nurse say to another nurse who was documenting my status on my chart that all she could do was report it to the doctors and let them handle it.  I didn’t want to deal with that, so I decided to comply with the prescribed meal plan.  This wasn’t all based on principle, mind you, I was damn hungry by this point.  My prescribed meal plan was and still is a 2000 calorie, low sodium (2 gms), low cholesterol diet consisting of 15 servings of carbs (grain group, fruit & veggies group & dairy), 6 servings of protein (6 oz. meat, fish, eggs(3/week), low-fat cheese, peanut butter), and 4 servings (4 tsps.) fats (preferably margarine). Broken down by meal: breakfast (2, 1, 1), lunch (5, 2, 1), dinner (5, 2, 1), and night time snack (3, 1, 1).  After eating this way for a few meals, I was not surprised that I was craving carbs and anticipating the next meal, almost obsessively.  There is very little to look forward to while on ‘bed rest’ orders other than the pleasure of a tasty meal (imagine that), which seems to be the favorite pastime of many patients, primarily elderly folks, but I surely did not enjoy the feeling.  In short order, the food never seemed to be enough.  I felt I could scarf down 3 or 4 times the amount I was being served.  Very little satiety. I’ve never been lactose intolerant, but the skim milk appeared to be the cause of abdominal cramps and a quick one-time loose stool following the meals.  This may have been due to the antibiotic, though, as I was given the IV just prior to breakfast and dinner, with the other dose at bedtime.  Interestingly, the bedtime dose had no ill effects, so I think it was the milk.  The last day there I skipped the milk, but that was the day I was switched to oral antibiotics.  I felt tired after eating also.  Began napping, which all but disappeared while low carbing.     The in-hospital physical therapy evaluated me and, to my delight, agreed that I do not need to go to a rehab to be reconditioned (factory refurb, right Myra?).  They did insist that I have a home health nurse for awhile, since I still have trouble with stairs and they want to be sure I continue to treat the two or three small decubitus sores remaining on my left thigh.  I am also getting a brand new ‘bariatric bed’ so I will be able to stop sleeping in my livingroom chair and a new walker, which I won’t use, but they insist I need it "just in case".  I have a king size bed that cost me a small fortune that I want to keep. It is the most comfortable bed I ever slept on before lying flat began causing back and hip pain.  Hopefully, I will one day soon be able to rest ‘normally’ again.  I’m trying to figure out where to put it for now.  I may just leave it disassembled in the room, leaning against one wall.  I have a large bedroom.     I was discharged late Monday evening, about 10:00PM.  I came home and literally had to fight off the urges to indulge in something carby to eat.  I wanted to dive into a plate or two of spaghetti with a passion.  Instead, I fried two pork chops, opened a can of spinach, and finished the plate off with a few black olives and a small chunk of cheddar cheese.  It helped quell the cravings.  I read some of your posts regarding the manhunt for me and the replies after I was tracked down then crashed for the night.  I am very touched by all your kind words and efforts to help me out.  Historically, I have been more than a little reluctant to accept help or have anyone make a fuss over me, but it does feel good to know people care.  In a sense, your concern has had a much greater affect on me than the support from my family and close friends.  I am, after all, a complete stranger with whom you have had limited knowledge regarding my character and have only been provided selective information about my life experiences.  Of course, I do understand that many of you consider yourselves to be able to see through the BS and tell when someone is being sincere.  You ARE quite skilled in this as it is true I AM an intelligent, caring, friendly, helpful, all around great guy.  And just a bit conceited ).     I am now home, sitting in my easy chair, writing this short note to y’all.  Had an antiestablishment unhealthy egg and sausage breakfast. I’ll be back on track in no time.  I am taking oral antibiotics 4X/day (Keflex 500mg), a diuretic once/day (Lasix 40mg), BP medication 2X/day (Vasotec 10mg), and

… read more »

Response:

I missed that first post, so I’m piggybacking!  Robert, I’m so glad you’re home!  Eat those veggies so your dicubitus spots will heal!  As a country girl, I had sheep, horses, cows,  etc. when I was in high school.  I can remember carrying those 50 lb. feed sacks from the car to the barn.  You have lost at least 2 feed sacks!  LOL!  Enjoy your walk, breath deep! It’s refreshing to be a part of your journey!  I’ll have this baby in September, and can’t wait to begin my journey!!!  Meanwhile, I’ll live vicariously through you and your successes! txmom — Pam – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – YIPPEE!!! Dancing around my computer and dog looking at me weirdly.  I am soooo glad to hear that you’re OK.  You do whatever you have to do to get well and get outta there. I’ll keep this short as I know a legion of folks are gonna write you. Warm virtual hugs, Simone

Response:

Robert, Glad to hear you are back from the hospital and back in control of your diet. One thing to be aware of is that low carbing may change the way that your body reacts to certain antibiotics. I ended up having serious hypoglycemic symptoms while taking antibiotics on an ultra-low carb diet.  My heart rate got very irregular and I kept almost passing out. Go online and double check the manufacturer’s detailed "don’t sue me" list of side effects for your drugs to see if they list modifications of blood sugar. This isn’t listed in the "for dummies" version of the drug information that pharmacists give you. If it lowers blood sugar, be careful lowering your carbs too much. Bactrim definitely sinks my blood sugar (and others with diabetes on the newsgroup reported similar problems.) Also, if your body needs to heal from the infection, you probably need more carbs than an ultralow diet will give you.  If you are healing slowly, you might boost your carbs to a level that will allow for healing. Use high glycemic carbs, not junk food for this. Once you are healed and off the drugs you can dig in. You’ll still get a lot of benefit from cutting your carbs by any significant percentage–50% or 70%.

Response:

Wahoo Robert!  So good to hear from you.  I sent a card today (to the hospital) but I am soooo glad you aren’t there. Eat some steak! TamH in VT PP 7/98 225/168/155  5′ 4.5" married 11 yrs, 1 daughter, 3 cats and a Basset Hound Self employed gift/craft store owner (velvetmoose.com)

Response:

Robert !!!  I am SOOOOO glad you are home and doing better !!  YAY !! Here’s a big GIANT cyber {{{{{{HUG}}}}}} for ya .  Keep the faith my man !! We know you can do it and each and every one of us here will support you 200% !!

couldn’t have put it better myself! — the diva

Response:

Robert!!!    Yer back! Yer alive! Yer lowcarbing for life, dude!  :-)  Seriously, your post made me cry….I’ve got people wandering around here asking about the lowcarb tortillas and I’m bawling and sniffling at the ‘puter. First things first, right?  :-)  SO glad to hear that you’re home and feeling so much better. By the by, you might look into tea tree oil for the leg sores. I had a brown recluse bite that every "expert" (ie doctors, doncha know) told me would have to be cauterized. 2 weeks of treating with teatree oil and I don’t even have a scar. So much for experts.  :-) Anyway. take care of you and welcome home!!!!!    Julee

Response:

Greetings My Friends,

Hi

Response:

words fail me. ((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((zen hugs))))))))))))))))))))))))))))) allison aka psycho *sigh of relief* – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Greetings My Friends,    I love you guys.  The outpouring of support, condolence, and empathy has been overwhelming.  I find it difficult to put into words how much I appreciate all of your efforts and kind words.  To say I was a little awestruck when Myra and Connie tracked me down and called me at the hospital, would be an understatement, indeed.  Mr. Lee Rodgers, you literally brought tears of joy to my eyes when I awoke and read the message attached the beautiful flowers you sent.  It truly touched my heart to be on the receiving end of such a warm, unselfish, and sincere gesture of human compassion.  As soon as I read your name at the end of the "get well wish", I wept with the comforting feeling that I must be Blessed to have such wonderful people in my life.  When you all replied to my initial "newbie" post, many of you appeared to be very caring and compassionate folks, and I am SO grateful that my instincts were accurate.  You are the real deal.  I want you to know that your advice, discussions, rants, and scientific citings have had an impact on my life.  I have no idea where I would be today had it not been for ASDLC. For the first time in several years, I feel that I do not have to concede to the fact that I WILL die prematurely as a direct result of being fat.  I have been living with this "reality" for so long that I still cannot help thinking, sometimes, that this must be too good to be true and the doctors may be right with their surgery recommendations. When many of you congratulated and even praised me for being "courageous" when I told and showed all, I felt like it was undeserved. I still do not see how I showed courage.  I was simply reacting to fear.  I was scheduled for a surgical procedure that I knew was permanent, wrought with terrible possible side effects, and, seemingly,  I was out of alternative options.  When I came across the low carb WOE, and subsequently this group, I felt I had nothing to lose by posting those ‘revealing’ posts (yes, I know, except fat).  You could call it a cry for help, but, nonetheless, my low carb journey began as a last ditch effort to avoid undergoing the surgery and, to be honest, with halfhearted confidence that it really would work.  That belief, though, was short lived.  As my innate desire to seek knowledge beaconed me to learn more of the science behind the theory, I quickly came to believe that the process of metabolism I was studying was indeed the way my body handled carbohydrates.  Again, without the depth and breadth of your collective knowledge base and the often simple questions that lead me to find the answers, I have been able to adopt and accept this as a new and invigorating lifestyle.  Despite the relentless attempts by the doctors, dieticians, and nutritionists to educate me in healthy nutrition, I stood my ground.  I must admit that I did opt to avoid any conflict by appearing receptive to their recommendations, although I termed my situation as ‘forced compliance’.  After 2 days of refusing all the food except the egg-substitute crap at breakfast (1/4 cup), the 2 oz. portions of lean meat or fish with lunch and dinner, and any low glycemic fruits and veggies, I became the focus of a ‘re-education’ campaign by the ‘learned ones’.  The RD asked why I would not eat the bread, milk, oatmeal, cream of wheat, cold cereals, watermelon, grapes, bananas, applesauce, regular Jell-O, pudding, noodles, rice, potatoes, carrots, peas, corn, well you get the picture, and I responded by saying "they are all evil poison to my body.  Why would I want to continue to eat the same foods that got me this fat?"  As soon as she began her spiel about the "food pyramid" and how it wasn’t the carbs that got me fat, but rather unhealthy fats and my behavior that led to overeating and all the other misinformation you guys told me these ‘experts’ routinely tell us, I realized any attempt to convert them would be futile.  Amazingly, they must think highly of their ability to persuade, since they never questioned my seemingly overnight reversal to their way of thinking about nutrition.  I gave up the fight.  I overheard a nurse say to another nurse who was documenting my status on my chart that all she could do was report it to the doctors and let them handle it.  I didn’t want to deal with that, so I decided to comply with the prescribed meal plan.  This wasn’t all based on principle, mind you, I was damn hungry by this point.  My prescribed meal plan was and still is a 2000 calorie, low sodium (2 gms), low cholesterol diet consisting of 15 servings of carbs (grain group, fruit & veggies group & dairy), 6 servings of protein (6 oz. meat, fish, eggs(3/week), low-fat cheese, peanut butter), and 4 servings (4 tsps.) fats (preferably margarine). Broken down by meal: breakfast (2, 1, 1), lunch (5, 2, 1), dinner (5, 2, 1), and night time snack (3, 1, 1).  After eating this way for a few meals, I was not surprised that I was craving carbs and anticipating the next meal, almost obsessively.  There is very little to look forward to while on ‘bed rest’ orders other than the pleasure of a tasty meal (imagine that), which seems to be the favorite pastime of many patients, primarily elderly folks, but I surely did not enjoy the feeling.  In short order, the food never seemed to be enough.  I felt I could scarf down 3 or 4 times the amount I was being served.  Very little satiety. I’ve never been lactose intolerant, but the skim milk appeared to be the cause of abdominal cramps and a quick one-time loose stool following the meals.  This may have been due to the antibiotic, though, as I was given the IV just prior to breakfast and dinner, with the other dose at bedtime.  Interestingly, the bedtime dose had no ill effects, so I think it was the milk.  The last day there I skipped the milk, but that was the day I was switched to oral antibiotics.  I felt tired after eating also.  Began napping, which all but disappeared while low carbing.    The in-hospital physical therapy evaluated me and, to my delight, agreed that I do not need to go to a rehab to be reconditioned (factory refurb, right Myra?).  They did insist that I have a home health nurse for awhile, since I still have trouble with stairs and they want to be sure I continue to treat the two or three small decubitus sores remaining on my left thigh.  I am also getting a brand new ‘bariatric bed’ so I will be able to stop sleeping in my livingroom chair and a new walker, which I won’t use, but they insist I need it "just in case".  I have a king size bed that cost me a small fortune that I want to keep. It is the most comfortable bed I ever slept on before lying flat began causing back and hip pain.  Hopefully, I will one day soon be able to rest ‘normally’ again.  I’m trying to figure out where to put it for now.  I may just leave it disassembled in the room, leaning against one wall.  I have a large bedroom.    I was discharged late Monday evening, about 10:00PM.  I came home and literally had to fight off the urges to indulge in something carby to eat.  I wanted to dive into a plate or two of spaghetti with a passion.  Instead, I fried two pork chops, opened a can of spinach, and finished the plate off with a few black olives and a small chunk of cheddar cheese.  It helped quell the cravings.  I read some of your posts regarding the manhunt for me and the replies after I was tracked down then crashed for the night.  I am very touched by all your kind words and efforts to help me out.  Historically, I have been more than a little reluctant to accept help or have anyone make a fuss over me, but it does feel good to know people care.  In a sense, your concern has had a much greater affect on me than the support from my family and close friends.  I am, after all, a complete stranger with whom you have had limited knowledge regarding my character and have only been provided selective information about my life experiences.  Of course, I do understand that many of you consider yourselves to be able to see through the BS and tell when someone is being sincere.  You ARE quite skilled in this as it is true I AM an intelligent, caring, friendly, helpful, all around great guy.  And just a bit conceited ).    I am now home, sitting in my easy chair, writing this short note to y’all.  Had an antiestablishment unhealthy egg and sausage breakfast. I’ll be back on track in no time.  I am taking oral antibiotics 4X/day (Keflex 500mg), a diuretic once/day (Lasix 40mg), BP medication 2X/day (Vasotec 10mg), and Silvadine(sp.) ointment for the sores.  Actually, I am not taking the BP meds nor did I in the hospital.  I pretended to take them then slipped them into my travel bag.  My BP is OK.  Of course it was elevated when I was admitted.  I was nervous, a little scared, tired from walking from my van to my room on the 3rd floor, and in pain from the leg sores.  The reading was down significantly by the next morning and consistently since, except when my vitals were taken just after I had blood drawn or my IV heparin lock changed.  They think it stabilized due to the medication, but I know better.  It makes sense to me.  I will not take something that I feel is unnecessary.  I have an office visit on Thursday with my PCP and know the focus will be on rescheduling surgery in Rochester NY.  It is not going to happen.  I actually feel better today than I have in a few years.  I’m not sure how long.  I can now stand, walk, sit, lie down, drive, and can do, I’m sure, many other abilities I lost due to my leg weight.  I am amazed at how much easier it is to do these things.  I am at my lowest weight in

… read more »

Response:

Robert, you are INCREDIBLE! You are such an inspiration. I think I’ll hang on to a few of your post for a boost when I feel myself reaching for cereal! Thank you for keeping us up to date and thanks for being incredible YOU! -Bippy

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Greetings My Friends,     I love you guys.  The outpouring of support, condolence, and empathy has been overwhelming.  I find it difficult to put into words how much I appreciate all of your efforts and kind words.  To say I was a little awestruck when Myra and Connie tracked me down and called me at the hospital, would be an understatement, indeed.  Mr. Lee Rodgers, you literally brought tears of joy to my eyes when I awoke and read the message attached the beautiful flowers you sent.  It truly touched my heart to be on the receiving end of such a warm, unselfish, and sincere gesture of human compassion.  As soon as I read your name at the end of the "get well wish", I wept with the comforting feeling that I must be Blessed to have such wonderful people in my life.  When you all replied to my initial "newbie" post, many of you appeared to be very caring and compassionate folks, and I am SO grateful that my instincts were accurate.  You are the real deal.  I want you to know that your advice, discussions, rants, and scientific citings have had an impact on my life.  I have no idea where I would be today had it not been for ASDLC. For the first time in several years, I feel that I do not have to concede to the fact that I WILL die prematurely as a direct result of being fat.  I have been living with this "reality" for so long that I still cannot help thinking, sometimes, that this must be too good to be true and the doctors may be right with their surgery recommendations. When many of you congratulated and even praised me for being "courageous" when I told and showed all, I felt like it was undeserved. I still do not see how I showed courage.  I was simply reacting to fear.  I was scheduled for a surgical procedure that I knew was permanent, wrought with terrible possible side effects, and, seemingly,  I was out of alternative options.  When I came across the low carb WOE, and subsequently this group, I felt I had nothing to lose by posting those ‘revealing’ posts (yes, I know, except fat).  You could call it a cry for help, but, nonetheless, my low carb journey began as a last ditch effort to avoid undergoing the surgery and, to be honest, with halfhearted confidence that it really would work.  That belief, though, was short lived.  As my innate desire to seek knowledge beaconed me to learn more of the science behind the theory, I quickly came to believe that the process of metabolism I was studying was indeed the way my body handled carbohydrates.  Again, without the depth and breadth of your collective knowledge base and the often simple questions that lead me to find the answers, I have been able to adopt and accept this as a new and invigorating lifestyle.  Despite the relentless attempts by the doctors, dieticians, and nutritionists to educate me in healthy nutrition, I stood my ground.  I must admit that I did opt to avoid any conflict by appearing receptive to their recommendations, although I termed my situation as ‘forced compliance’.  After 2 days of refusing all the food except the egg-substitute crap at breakfast (1/4 cup), the 2 oz. portions of lean meat or fish with lunch and dinner, and any low glycemic fruits and veggies, I became the focus of a ‘re-education’ campaign by the ‘learned ones’.  The RD asked why I would not eat the bread, milk, oatmeal, cream of wheat, cold cereals, watermelon, grapes, bananas, applesauce, regular Jell-O, pudding, noodles, rice, potatoes, carrots, peas, corn, well you get the picture, and I responded by saying "they are all evil poison to my body.  Why would I want to continue to eat the same foods that got me this fat?"  As soon as she began her spiel about the "food pyramid" and how it wasn’t the carbs that got me fat, but rather unhealthy fats and my behavior that led to overeating and all the other misinformation you guys told me these ‘experts’ routinely tell us, I realized any attempt to convert them would be futile.  Amazingly, they must think highly of their ability to persuade, since they never questioned my seemingly overnight reversal to their way of thinking about nutrition.  I gave up the fight.  I overheard a nurse say to another nurse who was documenting my status on my chart that all she could do was report it to the doctors and let them handle it.  I didn’t want to deal with that, so I decided to comply with the prescribed meal plan.  This wasn’t all based on principle, mind you, I was damn hungry by this point.  My prescribed meal plan was and still is a 2000 calorie, low sodium (2 gms), low cholesterol diet consisting of 15 servings of carbs (grain group, fruit & veggies group & dairy), 6 servings of protein (6 oz. meat, fish, eggs(3/week), low-fat cheese, peanut butter), and 4 servings (4 tsps.) fats (preferably margarine). Broken down by meal: breakfast (2, 1, 1), lunch (5, 2, 1), dinner (5, 2, 1), and night time snack (3, 1, 1).  After eating this way for a few meals, I was not surprised that I was craving carbs and anticipating the next meal, almost obsessively.  There is very little to look forward to while on ‘bed rest’ orders other than the pleasure of a tasty meal (imagine that), which seems to be the favorite pastime of many patients, primarily elderly folks, but I surely did not enjoy the feeling.  In short order, the food never seemed to be enough.  I felt I could scarf down 3 or 4 times the amount I was being served.  Very little satiety. I’ve never been lactose intolerant, but the skim milk appeared to be the cause of abdominal cramps and a quick one-time loose stool following the meals.  This may have been due to the antibiotic, though, as I was given the IV just prior to breakfast and dinner, with the other dose at bedtime.  Interestingly, the bedtime dose had no ill effects, so I think it was the milk.  The last day there I skipped the milk, but that was the day I was switched to oral antibiotics.  I felt tired after eating also.  Began napping, which all but disappeared while low carbing.     The in-hospital physical therapy evaluated me and, to my delight, agreed that I do not need to go to a rehab to be reconditioned (factory refurb, right Myra?).  They did insist that I have a home health nurse for awhile, since I still have trouble with stairs and they want to be sure I continue to treat the two or three small decubitus sores remaining on my left thigh.  I am also getting a brand new ‘bariatric bed’ so I will be able to stop sleeping in my livingroom chair and a new walker, which I won’t use, but they insist I need it "just in case".  I have a king size bed that cost me a small fortune that I want to keep. It is the most comfortable bed I ever slept on before lying flat began causing back and hip pain.  Hopefully, I will one day soon be able to rest ‘normally’ again.  I’m trying to figure out where to put it for now.  I may just leave it disassembled in the room, leaning against one wall.  I have a large bedroom.     I was discharged late Monday evening, about 10:00PM.  I came home and literally had to fight off the urges to indulge in something carby to eat.  I wanted to dive into a plate or two of spaghetti with a passion.  Instead, I fried two pork chops, opened a can of spinach, and finished the plate off with a few black olives and a small chunk of cheddar cheese.  It helped quell the cravings.  I read some of your posts regarding the manhunt for me and the replies after I was tracked down then crashed for the night.  I am very touched by all your kind words and efforts to help me out.  Historically, I have been more than a little reluctant to accept help or have anyone make a fuss over me, but it does feel good to know people care.  In a sense, your concern has had a much greater affect on me than the support from my family and close friends.  I am, after all, a complete stranger with whom you have had limited knowledge regarding my character and have only been provided selective information about my life experiences.  Of course, I do understand that many of you consider yourselves to be able to see through the BS and tell when someone is being sincere.  You ARE quite skilled in this as it is true I AM an intelligent, caring, friendly, helpful, all around great guy.  And just a bit conceited ).     I am now home, sitting in my easy chair, writing this short note to y’all.  Had an antiestablishment unhealthy egg and sausage breakfast. I’ll be back on track in no time.  I am taking oral antibiotics 4X/day (Keflex 500mg), a diuretic once/day (Lasix 40mg), BP medication 2X/day (Vasotec 10mg), and Silvadine(sp.) ointment for the sores.  Actually, I am not taking the BP meds nor did I in the hospital.  I pretended to take them then slipped them into my travel bag.  My BP is OK.  Of course it was elevated when I was admitted.  I was nervous, a little scared, tired from walking from my van to my room on the 3rd floor, and in pain from the leg sores.  The reading was down significantly by the next morning and consistently since, except when my vitals were taken just after I had blood drawn or my IV heparin lock changed.  They think it stabilized due to the medication, but I know better.  It makes sense to me.  I will not take something that I feel is unnecessary.  I have an office visit on Thursday with my PCP and know the focus will be on rescheduling surgery in Rochester NY.  It is not going to happen.  I actually feel

… read more »

Response:

Robert, buddy: What a pleasure to have you back!  104 pounds is freakin’ 104 pounds … you have every right to feel great about that!  So good to see you’re doing well.  We’re all pulling for you! — Bird 170/148/125 5′2" Info about the Lowcarb Get-together in St. Louis: http://www.jaxworld.com/lowcarb/stlouis.html Join us September 14-16! Lowcarb Stories to Warm the Heart: http://www.jaxworld.com/lowcarb/stories.html JOIN US on the Undernet #lowcarb Channel! http://www.jaxworld.com/lowcarb/irc.html for info

| Greetings My Friends, |     I love you guys.  The outpouring of support, condolence, and empathy | has been overwhelming….

Response:

Robert, From a lurker who only posts occasionally but reads faithfully….thank God you are okay, home safe, and feeling so damn good.  You are an inspiration to me, as you are to many here, I am sure. Welcome home. —

Response:

Welcome home! You’re for sure in the hearts of many! ~cambria~ Out here in the sticks of Kentucky

Response:

YIPPEE!  So glad to hear of your escape from the clutches of the diet police. <g  Did a happy dance around my computer and the dog looked at me weirdly. You are the real deal.

**Only ’cause *you* are, Robert; we here recognize quality when it emmanates from the screen and your posts are incandescent. I was simply reacting to fear.

**And the problem with that is??  Sometimes, fear can be a great catalyst if used properly.  With some folks, it immobilizes them; you used it as a kick-start. campaign by the ‘learned ones’.

**They really do believe what they’re preaching.  Alas, most of ‘em are only regurgitating what they’ve been taught and are not encouraged to think on their own.  Sad, really. I am also getting a brand new ‘bariatric bed’ so I will be able to stop sleeping in my livingroom chair

** Well, that’s OK for now as rest and comfort are important. I have a king size bed that cost me a small fortune that I want to keep. It is the most comfortable bed I ever slept on before lying flat began causing back and hip pain.  Hopefully, I will one day soon be able to rest ‘normally’ again.

**Knock the hopefully out of that sentence!  It may not happen quickly, but with your determination and strength of spirit, I have no doubt you’ll be in that comfy bed. Had an antiestablishment unhealthy egg and sausage breakfast.

**Bet it tasted great, too! My weight at discharge was 543 lbs., for a total weight loss of 104 lbs. since June 26th.

**Great about the loss, but more important is how you feel.  You seem to feel better and that’s the most crucial aspect of your recovery. Well, I’m going to stop writing now and take a walk outdoors, for the first time in over 2 years.  It may be a short walk, but in many ways quite a milestone.

** Wow, that will feel great.  I’ve mentioned my favorite Chinese proverb before on this group, but it seems to apply to you, so I’ll repeat it: The journey of a thousand leagues begins with the first step.  Congratulations on that first step, Robert. Warm virtual hugs, Simone

Response:

Robert, I’m so glad to hear that your home, in good health, and still in control. Your description of the hospital diet is frightening. I mean, I can (almost) understand that most nutritionists haven’t joined the 21st century yet — but I cannot fathom why they still push margerine over butter! I can only think of two reasons. First, they do NOT do any research on their own or attempt to find out what’s going on in current research. Second, none of the associations they belong to keep up with the research or, if they do, they do not distribute the results to their members. I mean, if WE can find out this stuff, surely they could… but, Noooo, they already "know" what’s healthy – they learned it in school from "experts" who "knew" what was healthy, so there’s no way they’re going to question it. Arrgggghhh….. I could go on and on and on. Anyway – in case you missed it, these two links were submitted lately and they’re very good: http://www.nursingceu.com/NCEU/courses/diet/ http://www.mercola.com/2001/jul/14/insulin.htm They should give you some "lite" reading while you recover. I’m also glad to hear that you can walk a little now. Anything that will get you moving again will help. Maybe in a few weeks you will be able to get some light dumbells and do some curls or bench presses to get those arms moving as well. Keep up the status reports, I really look forward to them! -Adam Selene low-carb for LIFE

Response:

YIPPEE!!! Dancing around my computer and dog looking at me weirdly.  I am soooo glad to hear that you’re OK.  You do whatever you have to do to get well and get outta there. I’ll keep this short as I know a legion of folks are gonna write you. Warm virtual hugs, Simone

Response:

Welcome back, Robert!!!  I’m so happy to hear that you’re doing well and are back at home.  Sounds to me like you did what you had to do to endure the hospital stay.  Bet the experience, and the resulting carb symptoms will serve as big motivators to continue with your low carb woe!  Not that you need any – you seem to have embraced this woe completely. — Big hugs and lots of love! Nicole K. 263/189/150 .

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Greetings My Friends,     I love you guys.  The outpouring of support, condolence, and empathy has been overwhelming.  I find it difficult to put into words how much I appreciate all of your efforts and kind words.  To say I was a little awestruck when Myra and Connie tracked me down and called me at the hospital, would be an understatement, indeed.  Mr. Lee Rodgers, you literally brought tears of joy to my eyes when I awoke and read the message attached the beautiful flowers you sent.  It truly touched my heart to be on the receiving end of such a warm, unselfish, and sincere gesture of human compassion.  As soon as I read your name at the end of the "get well wish", I wept with the comforting feeling that I must be Blessed to have such wonderful people in my life.  When you all replied to my initial "newbie" post, many of you appeared to be very caring and compassionate folks, and I am SO grateful that my instincts were accurate.  You are the real deal.  I want you to know that your advice, discussions, rants, and scientific citings have had an impact on my life.  I have no idea where I would be today had it not been for ASDLC. For the first time in several years, I feel that I do not have to concede to the fact that I WILL die prematurely as a direct result of being fat.  I have been living with this "reality" for so long that I still cannot help thinking, sometimes, that this must be too good to be true and the doctors may be right with their surgery recommendations. When many of you congratulated and even praised me for being "courageous" when I told and showed all, I felt like it was undeserved. I still do not see how I showed courage.  I was simply reacting to fear.  I was scheduled for a surgical procedure that I knew was permanent, wrought with terrible possible side effects, and, seemingly,  I was out of alternative options.  When I came across the low carb WOE, and subsequently this group, I felt I had nothing to lose by posting those ‘revealing’ posts (yes, I know, except fat).  You could call it a cry for help, but, nonetheless, my low carb journey began as a last ditch effort to avoid undergoing the surgery and, to be honest, with halfhearted confidence that it really would work.  That belief, though, was short lived.  As my innate desire to seek knowledge beaconed me to learn more of the science behind the theory, I quickly came to believe that the process of metabolism I was studying was indeed the way my body handled carbohydrates.  Again, without the depth and breadth of your collective knowledge base and the often simple questions that lead me to find the answers, I have been able to adopt and accept this as a new and invigorating lifestyle.  Despite the relentless attempts by the doctors, dieticians, and nutritionists to educate me in healthy nutrition, I stood my ground.  I must admit that I did opt to avoid any conflict by appearing receptive to their recommendations, although I termed my situation as ‘forced compliance’.  After 2 days of refusing all the food except the egg-substitute crap at breakfast (1/4 cup), the 2 oz. portions of lean meat or fish with lunch and dinner, and any low glycemic fruits and veggies, I became the focus of a ‘re-education’ campaign by the ‘learned ones’.  The RD asked why I would not eat the bread, milk, oatmeal, cream of wheat, cold cereals, watermelon, grapes, bananas, applesauce, regular Jell-O, pudding, noodles, rice, potatoes, carrots, peas, corn, well you get the picture, and I responded by saying "they are all evil poison to my body.  Why would I want to continue to eat the same foods that got me this fat?"  As soon as she began her spiel about the "food pyramid" and how it wasn’t the carbs that got me fat, but rather unhealthy fats and my behavior that led to overeating and all the other misinformation you guys told me these ‘experts’ routinely tell us, I realized any attempt to convert them would be futile.  Amazingly, they must think highly of their ability to persuade, since they never questioned my seemingly overnight reversal to their way of thinking about nutrition.  I gave up the fight.  I overheard a nurse say to another nurse who was documenting my status on my chart that all she could do was report it to the doctors and let them handle it.  I didn’t want to deal with that, so I decided to comply with the prescribed meal plan.  This wasn’t all based on principle, mind you, I was damn hungry by this point.  My prescribed meal plan was and still is a 2000 calorie, low sodium (2 gms), low cholesterol diet consisting of 15 servings of carbs (grain group, fruit & veggies group & dairy), 6 servings of protein (6 oz. meat, fish, eggs(3/week), low-fat cheese, peanut butter), and 4 servings (4 tsps.) fats (preferably margarine). Broken down by meal: breakfast (2, 1, 1), lunch (5, 2, 1), dinner (5, 2, 1), and night time snack (3, 1, 1).  After eating this way for a few meals, I was not surprised that I was craving carbs and anticipating the next meal, almost obsessively.  There is very little to look forward to while on ‘bed rest’ orders other than the pleasure of a tasty meal (imagine that), which seems to be the favorite pastime of many patients, primarily elderly folks, but I surely did not enjoy the feeling.  In short order, the food never seemed to be enough.  I felt I could scarf down 3 or 4 times the amount I was being served.  Very little satiety. I’ve never been lactose intolerant, but the skim milk appeared to be the cause of abdominal cramps and a quick one-time loose stool following the meals.  This may have been due to the antibiotic, though, as I was given the IV just prior to breakfast and dinner, with the other dose at bedtime.  Interestingly, the bedtime dose had no ill effects, so I think it was the milk.  The last day there I skipped the milk, but that was the day I was switched to oral antibiotics.  I felt tired after eating also.  Began napping, which all but disappeared while low carbing.     The in-hospital physical therapy evaluated me and, to my delight, agreed that I do not need to go to a rehab to be reconditioned (factory refurb, right Myra?).  They did insist that I have a home health nurse for awhile, since I still have trouble with stairs and they want to be sure I continue to treat the two or three small decubitus sores remaining on my left thigh.  I am also getting a brand new ‘bariatric bed’ so I will be able to stop sleeping in my livingroom chair and a new walker, which I won’t use, but they insist I need it "just in case".  I have a king size bed that cost me a small fortune that I want to keep. It is the most comfortable bed I ever slept on before lying flat began causing back and hip pain.  Hopefully, I will one day soon be able to rest ‘normally’ again.  I’m trying to figure out where to put it for now.  I may just leave it disassembled in the room, leaning against one wall.  I have a large bedroom.     I was discharged late Monday evening, about 10:00PM.  I came home and literally had to fight off the urges to indulge in something carby to eat.  I wanted to dive into a plate or two of spaghetti with a passion.  Instead, I fried two pork chops, opened a can of spinach, and finished the plate off with a few black olives and a small chunk of cheddar cheese.  It helped quell the cravings.  I read some of your posts regarding the manhunt for me and the replies after I was tracked down then crashed for the night.  I am very touched by all your kind words and efforts to help me out.  Historically, I have been more than a little reluctant to accept help or have anyone make a fuss over me, but it does feel good to know people care.  In a sense, your concern has had a much greater affect on me than the support from my family and close friends.  I am, after all, a complete stranger with whom you have had limited knowledge regarding my character and have only been provided selective information about my life experiences.  Of course, I do understand that many of you consider yourselves to be able to see through the BS and tell when someone is being sincere.  You ARE quite skilled in this as it is true I AM an intelligent, caring, friendly, helpful, all around great guy.  And just a bit conceited ).     I am now home, sitting in my easy chair, writing this short note to y’all.  Had an antiestablishment unhealthy egg and sausage breakfast. I’ll be back on track in no time.  I am taking oral antibiotics 4X/day (Keflex 500mg), a diuretic once/day (Lasix 40mg), BP medication 2X/day (Vasotec 10mg), and Silvadine(sp.) ointment for the sores.  Actually, I am not taking the BP meds nor did I in the hospital.  I pretended to take them then slipped them into my travel bag.  My BP is OK.  Of course it was elevated when I was admitted.  I was nervous, a little scared, tired from walking from my van to my room on the 3rd floor, and in pain from the leg sores.  The reading was down significantly by the next morning and consistently since, except when my vitals were taken just after I had blood drawn or my IV heparin lock changed.  They think it stabilized due to the medication, but I know better.  It makes sense to me.  I will not take something that I feel is

… read more »

Response:

Robert !!!  I am SOOOOO glad you are home and doing better !!  YAY !! Not to mention firmly in control of your own food choices once again. Yes, you were a total stranger to us but I do believe we’ve officially "adopted" you as one of our own.  ;-) Here’s a big GIANT cyber {{{{{{HUG}}}}}} for ya .  Keep the faith my man !! We know you can do it and each and every one of us here will support you 200% !! ConnieMS 244/163/145 http://pages.ivillage.com/alcon70/conniems/ ASDL-C Low Carb Shindig – Sept. 14-16, 2001 St. Louis, MO www.jaxworld.com/lowcarb/stlouis.html To be added to the info/mailing list send your email addy to:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Greetings My Friends,     I love you guys.  The outpouring of support, condolence, and empathy has been overwhelming.  I find it difficult to put into words how much I appreciate all of your efforts and kind words.  To say I was a little awestruck when Myra and Connie tracked me down and called me at the hospital, would be an understatement, indeed.  Mr. Lee Rodgers, you literally brought tears of joy to my eyes when I awoke and read the message attached the beautiful flowers you sent.  It truly touched my heart to be on the receiving end of such a warm, unselfish, and sincere gesture of human compassion.  As soon as I read your name at the end of the "get well wish", I wept with the comforting feeling that I must be Blessed to have such wonderful people in my life.  When you all replied to my initial "newbie" post, many of you appeared to be very caring and compassionate folks, and I am SO grateful that my instincts were accurate.  You are the real deal.  I want you to know that your advice, discussions, rants, and scientific citings have had an impact on my life.  I have no idea where I would be today had it not been for ASDLC. For the first time in several years, I feel that I do not have to concede to the fact that I WILL die prematurely as a direct result of being fat.  I have been living with this "reality" for so long that I still cannot help thinking, sometimes, that this must be too good to be true and the doctors may be right with their surgery recommendations. When many of you congratulated and even praised me for being "courageous" when I told and showed all, I felt like it was undeserved. I still do not see how I showed courage.  I was simply reacting to fear.  I was scheduled for a surgical procedure that I knew was permanent, wrought with terrible possible side effects, and, seemingly,  I was out of alternative options.  When I came across the low carb WOE, and subsequently this group, I felt I had nothing to lose by posting those ‘revealing’ posts (yes, I know, except fat).  You could call it a cry for help, but, nonetheless, my low carb journey began as a last ditch effort to avoid undergoing the surgery and, to be honest, with halfhearted confidence that it really would work.  That belief, though, was short lived.  As my innate desire to seek knowledge beaconed me to learn more of the science behind the theory, I quickly came to believe that the process of metabolism I was studying was indeed the way my body handled carbohydrates.  Again, without the depth and breadth of your collective knowledge base and the often simple questions that lead me to find the answers, I have been able to adopt and accept this as a new and invigorating lifestyle.  Despite the relentless attempts by the doctors, dieticians, and nutritionists to educate me in healthy nutrition, I stood my ground.  I must admit that I did opt to avoid any conflict by appearing receptive to their recommendations, although I termed my situation as ‘forced compliance’.  After 2 days of refusing all the food except the egg-substitute crap at breakfast (1/4 cup), the 2 oz. portions of lean meat or fish with lunch and dinner, and any low glycemic fruits and veggies, I became the focus of a ‘re-education’ campaign by the ‘learned ones’.  The RD asked why I would not eat the bread, milk, oatmeal, cream of wheat, cold cereals, watermelon, grapes, bananas, applesauce, regular Jell-O, pudding, noodles, rice, potatoes, carrots, peas, corn, well you get the picture, and I responded by saying "they are all evil poison to my body.  Why would I want to continue to eat the same foods that got me this fat?"  As soon as she began her spiel about the "food pyramid" and how it wasn’t the carbs that got me fat, but rather unhealthy fats and my behavior that led to overeating and all the other misinformation you guys told me these ‘experts’ routinely tell us, I realized any attempt to convert them would be futile.  Amazingly, they must think highly of their ability to persuade, since they never questioned my seemingly overnight reversal to their way of thinking about nutrition.  I gave up the fight.  I overheard a nurse say to another nurse who was documenting my status on my chart that all she could do was report it to the doctors and let them handle it.  I didn’t want to deal with that, so I decided to comply with the prescribed meal plan.  This wasn’t all based on principle, mind you, I was damn hungry by this point.  My prescribed meal plan was and still is a 2000 calorie, low sodium (2 gms), low cholesterol diet consisting of 15 servings of carbs (grain group, fruit & veggies group & dairy), 6 servings of protein (6 oz. meat, fish, eggs(3/week), low-fat cheese, peanut butter), and 4 servings (4 tsps.) fats (preferably margarine). Broken down by meal: breakfast (2, 1, 1), lunch (5, 2, 1), dinner (5, 2, 1), and night time snack (3, 1, 1).  After eating this way for a few meals, I was not surprised that I was craving carbs and anticipating the next meal, almost obsessively.  There is very little to look forward to while on ‘bed rest’ orders other than the pleasure of a tasty meal (imagine that), which seems to be the favorite pastime of many patients, primarily elderly folks, but I surely did not enjoy the feeling.  In short order, the food never seemed to be enough.  I felt I could scarf down 3 or 4 times the amount I was being served.  Very little satiety. I’ve never been lactose intolerant, but the skim milk appeared to be the cause of abdominal cramps and a quick one-time loose stool following the meals.  This may have been due to the antibiotic, though, as I was given the IV just prior to breakfast and dinner, with the other dose at bedtime.  Interestingly, the bedtime dose had no ill effects, so I think it was the milk.  The last day there I skipped the milk, but that was the day I was switched to oral antibiotics.  I felt tired after eating also.  Began napping, which all but disappeared while low carbing.     The in-hospital physical therapy evaluated me and, to my delight, agreed that I do not need to go to a rehab to be reconditioned (factory refurb, right Myra?).  They did insist that I have a home health nurse for awhile, since I still have trouble with stairs and they want to be sure I continue to treat the two or three small decubitus sores remaining on my left thigh.  I am also getting a brand new ‘bariatric bed’ so I will be able to stop sleeping in my livingroom chair and a new walker, which I won’t use, but they insist I need it "just in case".  I have a king size bed that cost me a small fortune that I want to keep. It is the most comfortable bed I ever slept on before lying flat began causing back and hip pain.  Hopefully, I will one day soon be able to rest ‘normally’ again.  I’m trying to figure out where to put it for now.  I may just leave it disassembled in the room, leaning against one wall.  I have a large bedroom.     I was discharged late Monday evening, about 10:00PM.  I came home and literally had to fight off the urges to indulge in something carby to eat.  I wanted to dive into a plate or two of spaghetti with a passion.  Instead, I fried two pork chops, opened a can of spinach, and finished the plate off with a few black olives and a small chunk of cheddar cheese.  It helped quell the cravings.  I read some of your posts regarding the manhunt for me and the replies after I was tracked down then crashed for the night.  I am very touched by all your kind words and efforts to help me out.  Historically, I have been more than a little reluctant to accept help or have anyone make a fuss over me, but it does feel good to know people care.  In a sense, your concern has had a much greater affect on me than the support from my family and close friends.  I am, after all, a complete stranger with whom you have had limited knowledge regarding my character and have only been provided selective information about my life experiences.  Of course, I do understand that many of you consider yourselves to be able to see through the BS and tell when someone is being sincere.  You ARE quite skilled in this as it is true I AM an intelligent, caring, friendly, helpful, all around great guy.  And just a bit conceited ).     I am now home, sitting in my easy chair, writing this short note to y’all.  Had an antiestablishment unhealthy egg and sausage breakfast. I’ll be back on track in no time.  I am taking oral antibiotics 4X/day (Keflex 500mg), a diuretic once/day (Lasix 40mg), BP medication 2X/day (Vasotec 10mg), and Silvadine(sp.) ointment for the sores.  Actually, I am not taking the BP meds nor did I in the hospital.  I pretended to take them then slipped them into my travel bag.  My BP is OK.  Of course it was elevated when I was admitted.  I was nervous, a little scared, tired from walking from my van to my room on the 3rd floor, and in pain from the leg sores.  The reading was down significantly by the next morning and

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Response:

Greetings My Friends,     I love you guys.  The outpouring of support, condolence, and empathy has been overwhelming.  I find it difficult to put into words how much I appreciate all of your efforts and kind words.  To say I was a little awestruck when Myra and Connie tracked me down and called me at the hospital, would be an understatement, indeed.  Mr. Lee Rodgers, you literally brought tears of joy to my eyes when I awoke and read the message attached the beautiful flowers you sent.  It truly touched my heart to be on the receiving end of such a warm, unselfish, and sincere gesture of human compassion.  As soon as I read your name at the end of the "get well wish", I wept with the comforting feeling that I must be Blessed to have such wonderful people in my life.  When you all replied to my initial "newbie" post, many of you appeared to be very caring and compassionate folks, and I am SO grateful that my instincts were accurate.  You are the real deal.  I want you to know that your advice, discussions, rants, and scientific citings have had an impact on my life.  I have no idea where I would be today had it not been for ASDLC. For the first time in several years, I feel that I do not have to concede to the fact that I WILL die prematurely as a direct result of being fat.  I have been living with this "reality" for so long that I still cannot help thinking, sometimes, that this must be too good to be true and the doctors may be right with their surgery recommendations. When many of you congratulated and even praised me for being "courageous" when I told and showed all, I felt like it was undeserved. I still do not see how I showed courage.  I was simply reacting to fear.  I was scheduled for a surgical procedure that I knew was permanent, wrought with terrible possible side effects, and, seemingly,  I was out of alternative options.  When I came across the low carb WOE, and subsequently this group, I felt I had nothing to lose by posting those ‘revealing’ posts (yes, I know, except fat).  You could call it a cry for help, but, nonetheless, my low carb journey began as a last ditch effort to avoid undergoing the surgery and, to be honest, with halfhearted confidence that it really would work.  That belief, though, was short lived.  As my innate desire to seek knowledge beaconed me to learn more of the science behind the theory, I quickly came to believe that the process of metabolism I was studying was indeed the way my body handled carbohydrates.  Again, without the depth and breadth of your collective knowledge base and the often simple questions that lead me to find the answers, I have been able to adopt and accept this as a new and invigorating lifestyle.  Despite the relentless attempts by the doctors, dieticians, and nutritionists to educate me in healthy nutrition, I stood my ground.  I must admit that I did opt to avoid any conflict by appearing receptive to their recommendations, although I termed my situation as ‘forced compliance’.  After 2 days of refusing all the food except the egg-substitute crap at breakfast (1/4 cup), the 2 oz. portions of lean meat or fish with lunch and dinner, and any low glycemic fruits and veggies, I became the focus of a ‘re-education’ campaign by the ‘learned ones’.  The RD asked why I would not eat the bread, milk, oatmeal, cream of wheat, cold cereals, watermelon, grapes, bananas, applesauce, regular Jell-O, pudding, noodles, rice, potatoes, carrots, peas, corn, well you get the picture, and I responded by saying "they are all evil poison to my body.  Why would I want to continue to eat the same foods that got me this fat?"  As soon as she began her spiel about the "food pyramid" and how it wasn’t the carbs that got me fat, but rather unhealthy fats and my behavior that led to overeating and all the other misinformation you guys told me these ‘experts’ routinely tell us, I realized any attempt to convert them would be futile.  Amazingly, they must think highly of their ability to persuade, since they never questioned my seemingly overnight reversal to their way of thinking about nutrition.  I gave up the fight.  I overheard a nurse say to another nurse who was documenting my status on my chart that all she could do was report it to the doctors and let them handle it.  I didn’t want to deal with that, so I decided to comply with the prescribed meal plan.  This wasn’t all based on principle, mind you, I was damn hungry by this point.  My prescribed meal plan was and still is a 2000 calorie, low sodium (2 gms), low cholesterol diet consisting of 15 servings of carbs (grain group, fruit & veggies group & dairy), 6 servings of protein (6 oz. meat, fish, eggs(3/week), low-fat cheese, peanut butter), and 4 servings (4 tsps.) fats (preferably margarine). Broken down by meal: breakfast (2, 1, 1), lunch (5, 2, 1), dinner (5, 2, 1), and night time snack (3, 1, 1).  After eating this way for a few meals, I was not surprised that I was craving carbs and anticipating the next meal, almost obsessively.  There is very little to look forward to while on ‘bed rest’ orders other than the pleasure of a tasty meal (imagine that), which seems to be the favorite pastime of many patients, primarily elderly folks, but I surely did not enjoy the feeling.  In short order, the food never seemed to be enough.  I felt I could scarf down 3 or 4 times the amount I was being served.  Very little satiety. I’ve never been lactose intolerant, but the skim milk appeared to be the cause of abdominal cramps and a quick one-time loose stool following the meals.  This may have been due to the antibiotic, though, as I was given the IV just prior to breakfast and dinner, with the other dose at bedtime.  Interestingly, the bedtime dose had no ill effects, so I think it was the milk.  The last day there I skipped the milk, but that was the day I was switched to oral antibiotics.  I felt tired after eating also.  Began napping, which all but disappeared while low carbing.     The in-hospital physical therapy evaluated me and, to my delight, agreed that I do not need to go to a rehab to be reconditioned (factory refurb, right Myra?).  They did insist that I have a home health nurse for awhile, since I still have trouble with stairs and they want to be sure I continue to treat the two or three small decubitus sores remaining on my left thigh.  I am also getting a brand new ‘bariatric bed’ so I will be able to stop sleeping in my livingroom chair and a new walker, which I won’t use, but they insist I need it "just in case".  I have a king size bed that cost me a small fortune that I want to keep. It is the most comfortable bed I ever slept on before lying flat began causing back and hip pain.  Hopefully, I will one day soon be able to rest ‘normally’ again.  I’m trying to figure out where to put it for now.  I may just leave it disassembled in the room, leaning against one wall.  I have a large bedroom.     I was discharged late Monday evening, about 10:00PM.  I came home and literally had to fight off the urges to indulge in something carby to eat.  I wanted to dive into a plate or two of spaghetti with a passion.  Instead, I fried two pork chops, opened a can of spinach, and finished the plate off with a few black olives and a small chunk of cheddar cheese.  It helped quell the cravings.  I read some of your posts regarding the manhunt for me and the replies after I was tracked down then crashed for the night.  I am very touched by all your kind words and efforts to help me out.  Historically, I have been more than a little reluctant to accept help or have anyone make a fuss over me, but it does feel good to know people care.  In a sense, your concern has had a much greater affect on me than the support from my family and close friends.  I am, after all, a complete stranger with whom you have had limited knowledge regarding my character and have only been provided selective information about my life experiences.  Of course, I do understand that many of you consider yourselves to be able to see through the BS and tell when someone is being sincere.  You ARE quite skilled in this as it is true I AM an intelligent, caring, friendly, helpful, all around great guy.  And just a bit conceited ).     I am now home, sitting in my easy chair, writing this short note to y’all.  Had an antiestablishment unhealthy egg and sausage breakfast. I’ll be back on track in no time.  I am taking oral antibiotics 4X/day (Keflex 500mg), a diuretic once/day (Lasix 40mg), BP medication 2X/day (Vasotec 10mg), and Silvadine(sp.) ointment for the sores.  Actually, I am not taking the BP meds nor did I in the hospital.  I pretended to take them then slipped them into my travel bag.  My BP is OK.  Of course it was elevated when I was admitted.  I was nervous, a little scared, tired from walking from my van to my room on the 3rd floor, and in pain from the leg sores.  The reading was down significantly by the next morning and consistently since, except when my vitals were taken just after I had blood drawn or my IV heparin lock changed.  They think it stabilized due to the medication, but I know better.  It makes sense to me.  I will not take something that I feel is unnecessary.  I have an office visit on Thursday with my PCP and know the focus will be on rescheduling surgery in Rochester NY.  It is not going to happen.  I actually feel better today than I have in a few years.  I’m not sure how long.  I can now stand, walk, sit, lie down, drive, and can do, I’m sure, many other abilities I lost due to my leg weight.  I am amazed at how much easier it is to do these things.  I am at my lowest weight in several years and can get around better than I did when I was discharged from the physical rehabilitation hospital following congestive heart failure over a year ago.  My weight at discharge was 543 lbs., for a total weight loss of 104 lbs. since June 26th.  And you best believe I can feel the difference.  Of course, it was nearly all fluid

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Question:

 My biggest fear is that with losing weight so fast and lowering my blood pressure and triglycerides I’m going to be overmedicated shortly!  I can hardly wait for September to roll around for my follow-up Dr. appointment. I’m expecting dramatic results on my lipids & BP; will let you know. Hope this is somwhat encouraging.  Good luck to your friend! Peter 257/239/184   day 24 p.s.  I also have allergies galore.  Take Zyrtec daily, keeps them in check

Well here is hoping. If you ever start having dizziness within an hour of taking your blood pressure meds, let your doctor know immediately! I have had my bp meds reduced a couple times since I started losing weight and the Doc was hell on that dizzy thing (I had started getting dizzy and damn near got a slapdown for not telling him sooner.) — 370/318/270 Confirmed Meatatarian

Response:

I have to say that as a nurse, and one who knows that low-carb is the way for diabetics to eat, it truly pisses me off to no end when we are sent "low concentrated carbohydrate" meal trays for our diabetics and they contain mashed potatoes, white bread and glazed carrots with a salad (low fat dressing of course) and a weensy little piece of meat!! Grrrrrr!  

Brings back memories. I worked in dietary in a nursing home for 4 years while I was in school. I never did figure out why an NCS diabetic patient would get a 1600 calories diet with TWO pieces of bread instead of one. Go figure. — 370/318/270 Confirmed Meatatarian

Response:

Low carbing often lowers blood pressure, EXCEPT when it is caused by hormonal problems. Because the stroke followed a dose of prednisone, it is possible that your friend has an atypical blood pressure response to hormones.

We spoke to a neurologist freind, and he says that it is _very_ common, and not at all atypical, for prednisone to elevate blood pressure.  It was probably unwise to give it to her without monitoring her blood pressure, with her history of hypertension. If this is the case LOW CARBING WON’T HELP. I know this because I have this problem. I low carbed devoutly and watched my pressure soar up to 108/95 because of a reaction to progesterone.  A cortisone shot did dreadful things to my body too, though fortunately, I didn’t have the stroke (I just felt like I was going to at any moment.)

Thank you for the warning.  Our RN friend is getting her what  she needs in order to monitor her blood pressure at home, so that will help. Your friend might want to start low carbing but it would be highly dangerous to stop taking blood pressure medications unless her pressure drops significantly.

She has no intention of doing this – none whatsoever.  I hope I didn’t give the impression that something so stupid would be considered. She should keep her doctors up to date on this. This is the advice in Protein Power and it is very important for people here NOT to start prescribing for people in the middle of serious medical crises.

No one is doing this.  Our goal is to give her as much information as possible so that she can make informed choices.  Obviously she’ll be getting tons of information about low-fat, high complex carbohydrate diets from the health care establishment.  I think it is important that she also be exposed to alternatives, as well as to the possible pitfalls of the recommended diet.  Everything will be done with her doctor’s knowlege, and I’m sure anything will be better than Ho hos and diet coke. Thank you for the warning.  I’ll make sure she reads it. Nancy DeMarco

Response:

A very good friend suffered what looks like a mild hemorrhagic stroke a little over a week ago.  (She’s had a CAT scan – MRI is scheduled for Sunday – don’t get me started on the HMO wall we had to tear down sending her home.)  She’s doing well – her confusion is lifting, and she is much more like herself.  (Thank Gawd.)

I wish the best of luck to your friend.  My mother-in-law suffered what appeared to be a mini-stroke a couple of years ago, and the emergency room wanted to just send her home.  The family demanded that she be hospitalized for testing, and they found a "giant" brain aneurysm. The seeming mild stroke was apparently due to a very small blood clot thrown off the aneurysm.  She was extremely lucky, because aneurysms are rarely discovered before they rupture, and she would not have survived if it had ruptured.  Fortunately, it was discovered, and treated with an angioscopic procedure from which she was fully recovered in 2 weeks. (For anyone who doesn’t know what an aneurysm is, it’s a weakened area like a blood-filled bubble, projecting from a major blood vessel.) —                 "There’s a seeker born every minute."

Response:

Under the spreading chestnut tree, "Peter Marengo" and quipped: Three years ago at 46 years old, I suffered a serious, life-threatening brain-stem stroke, and was hospitalized for four months. Prior to this I was very active and ate the so-called "healthy" foods.  Well, between being fed extremely high-carb, low fat food while hospitalized,

I have to say that as a nurse, and one who knows that low-carb is the way for diabetics to eat, it truly pisses me off to no end when we are sent "low concentrated carbohydrate" meal trays for our diabetics and they contain mashed potatoes, white bread and glazed carrots with a salad (low fat dressing of course) and a weensy little piece of meat!! Grrrrrr!   I have a problem in that as a nurse, and one who works on a cardiac unit, I really cannot *say* anything to my patients that contradicts the physician’s orders/advice or I could get in big trouble.  They are still ordering the traditional ‘lowfat/low cholesterol diet" for their cardiac patients along with multiple medications….and we keep seeing the same patients over and over again with chest pain, multiple angiograms/angioplasties, etc.  When are they gonna get it?? *sigh* Cheryl ~~~Sooner or later everyone sits down to a banquet of consequences.~~~                   (Robert Louis Stevenson)

Response:

Low carbing often lowers blood pressure, EXCEPT when it is caused by hormonal problems. Because the stroke followed a dose of prednisone, it is possible that your friend has an atypical blood pressure response to hormones. If this is the case LOW CARBING WON’T HELP. I know this because I have this problem. I low carbed devoutly and watched my pressure soar up to 108/95 because of a reaction to progesterone.  A cortisone shot did dreadful things to my body too, though fortunately, I didn’t have the stroke (I just felt like I was going to at any moment.) Your friend might want to start low carbing but it would be highly dangerous to stop taking blood pressure medications unless her pressure drops significantly. She should keep her doctors up to date on this. This is the advice in Protein Power and it is very important for people here NOT to start prescribing for people in the middle of serious medical crises.

Response:

Forgot to say that I’ve been off Coumadin for a year,thankfully.  Also, I’m one in ten thousand (according to neurologists) in the remarkable recovery I made from the type of stroke I had. I was first given one in 3 chances of living, then one in six chances of ever walking, then one in a hundred chances of ever leading a normal life.  I fought back and worked hard, went back to work long before I was suppoed to be able to, and three years later have only a slight limp and slow handwriting to show for it  I’m just as determined to lose this weight and kick the tricglycerides in the butt! Peter

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Peter, congratulations on your new healthy lifestyle! And the quicker you can get off that Coumadin the better because ALL it does is to remove vitamin K from your body. Vitamin k promotes coagulation (which is why they prescribe coumadin) but it also helps calcium to form bones. Without it, your bones will be very brittle and small. Instead of coumadin, you should try vitamin E and lecithin to keep your blood from coagulating where it shouldn’t. (Ask your doctor first, of course. And if he says no…. maybe ask a couple more.) -Adam low-carb for LIFE

Response:

Thank you, Peter. I’ll pass this along to Char.  Good for you for taking charge!!! And seriously, if you worry about being overmedicated, don’t let them ignore you until September.  I’ve found that if you mention LC, they’re only too happy to exsanguinate on the spot. Take care, Nancy DeMarco – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Three years ago at 46 years old, I suffered a serious, life-threatening brain-stem stroke, and was hospitalized for four months. Prior to this I was very active and ate the so-called "healthy" foods.  Well, between being fed extremely high-carb, low fat food while hospitalized, and not being able to eat green leafy vegetables because of Coumadin, I gained weight rapidly.  It continued after I was released.  I gained 90 pounds in one year, eating the food that the doctors told me was "healthy, going from 180# to 270#!"  Not only that, but my blood pressure increased to about 170/95, even though I was on three different BP medications!   Eating this way  greatly increased my risk for another stroke! About a year ago I realized I had to change my eating habits despite what I was directed to do by the Drs.  I tried various diets and lost 13 pounds in a year.  When I went for a physical on June 20, of this year, my triglyceride level was 650+, which had never been high before in my life! After doing a lot of research and reading,  I decided on Atkins induction version of LC.  (I read all the books including Protein Power, Carb. Addicts Diet, etc.) I started on my new LC way of eating on June 24, and have now lost 18 pounds in 24 days!  I feel great, have lots of energy, and expect that when I go back to the Dr. in 90 days for the triglyceride check that they will have gone WAY down.  I check my Bp daily, and it is steadily going down.  My biggest fear is that with losing weight so fast and lowering my blood pressure and triglycerides I’m going to be overmedicated shortly!  I can hardly wait for September to roll around for my follow-up Dr. appointment. I’m expecting dramatic results on my lipids & BP; will let you know. Hope this is somwhat encouraging.  Good luck to your friend! Peter 257/239/184   day 24 p.s.  I also have allergies galore.  Take Zyrtec daily, keeps them in check pps.  I’m at work; plese don’t reply to this e-mail address.  Mine is A very good friend suffered what looks like a mild hemorrhagic stroke a little over a week ago So, are there any websites, anecdotes, books, success stories, etc that anyone would like to share, especially with lowering BP in mind?

Response:

Y’know, I probably shouldn’t worry about the length.  She’s resting at home and bored to tears.  If she can only read a little at a time, so what?  She’ll get through it.  She certainly has motivation. Thanks very much for the links.   Nancy DeMarco – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Print this out and maker her read it from top to bottom. http://www.nursingceu.com/NCEU/courses/diet/ And if she’s still not convinced, try this one (the first of 4 separate pages.) http://www.mercola.com/2001/jul/14/insulin.htm -Adam 240/188/190 low-carb for LIFE oops – I just re-read your note. I guess these are WAY too long and detailed. Wel… maybe you can read them and cut out the relevent sentences for her. If nothing else, these will help keep you motivated to convince her. -Adam

Response:

Thank you, Jerry! Nancy DeMarco (ready to swig a gallon of olive oil) – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Go to http://www.google.com/ and type in ‘low fat diet’ + stroke . You will find many articles on the increased danger of hemmorrhagic stroke (particularly for women) with high blood pressure and a low fat diet.

Response:

Three years ago at 46 years old, I suffered a serious, life-threatening brain-stem stroke, and was hospitalized for four months. Prior to this I was very active and ate the so-called "healthy" foods.  Well, between being fed extremely high-carb, low fat food while hospitalized, and not being able to eat green leafy vegetables because of Coumadin, I gained weight rapidly.  It continued after I was released.  I gained 90 pounds in one year, eating the food that the doctors told me was "healthy, going from 180# to 270#!"  Not only that, but my blood pressure increased to about 170/95, even though I was on three different BP medications!   Eating this way  greatly increased my risk for another stroke! About a year ago I realized I had to change my eating habits despite what I was directed to do by the Drs.  I tried various diets and lost 13 pounds in a year.  When I went for a physical on June 20, of this year, my triglyceride level was 650+, which had never been high before in my life! After doing a lot of research and reading,  I decided on Atkins induction version of LC.  (I read all the books including Protein Power, Carb. Addicts Diet, etc.) I started on my new LC way of eating on June 24, and have now lost 18 pounds in 24 days!  I feel great, have lots of energy, and expect that when I go back to the Dr. in 90 days for the triglyceride check that they will have gone WAY down.  I check my Bp daily, and it is steadily going down.  My biggest fear is that with losing weight so fast and lowering my blood pressure and triglycerides I’m going to be overmedicated shortly!  I can hardly wait for September to roll around for my follow-up Dr. appointment. I’m expecting dramatic results on my lipids & BP; will let you know. Hope this is somwhat encouraging.  Good luck to your friend! Peter 257/239/184   day 24 p.s.  I also have allergies galore.  Take Zyrtec daily, keeps them in check pps.  I’m at work; plese don’t reply to this e-mail address.  Mine is – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – A very good friend suffered what looks like a mild hemorrhagic stroke a little over a week ago So, are there any websites, anecdotes, books, success stories, etc that anyone would like to share, especially with lowering BP in mind?

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Three years ago at 46 years old, I suffered a serious, life-threatening brain-stem stroke, and was hospitalized for four months. Prior to this I was very active and ate the so-called "healthy" foods.  Well, between being fed extremely high-carb, low fat food while hospitalized, and not being able to eat green leafy vegetables because of Coumadin, I gained weight rapidly.  It continued after I was released.  I gained 90 pounds in one year, eating the food that the doctors told me was "healthy, going from 180# to 270#!"  Not only that, but my blood pressure increased to about 170/95, even though I was on three different BP medications!   Eating this way  greatly increased my risk for another stroke! About a year ago I realized I had to change my eating habits despite what I was directed to do by the Drs.  I tried various diets and lost 13 pounds in a year.  When I went for a physical on June 20, of this year, my triglyceride level was 650+, which had never been high before in my life! After doing a lot of research and reading,  I decided on Atkins induction version of LC.  (I read all the books including Protein Power, Carb. Addicts Diet, etc.) I started on my new LC way of eating on June 24, and have now lost 18 pounds in 24 days!  I feel great, have lots of energy, and expect that when I go back to the Dr. in 90 days for the triglyceride check that they will have gone WAY down.  I check my Bp daily, and it is steadily going down.  My biggest fear is that with losing weight so fast and lowering my blood pressure and triglycerides I’m going to be overmedicated shortly!  I can hardly wait for September to roll around for my follow-up Dr. appointment. I’m expecting dramatic results on my lipids & BP; will let you know. Hope this is somwhat encouraging.  Good luck to your friend! Peter 257/239/184   day 24 p.s.  I also have allergies galore.  Take Zyrtec daily, keeps them in check

Peter, congratulations on your new healthy lifestyle! And the quicker you can get off that Coumadin the better because ALL it does is to remove vitamin K from your body. Vitamin k promotes coagulation (which is why they prescribe coumadin) but it also helps calcium to form bones. Without it, your bones will be very brittle and small. Instead of coumadin, you should try vitamin E and lecithin to keep your blood from coagulating where it shouldn’t. (Ask your doctor first, of course. And if he says no…. maybe ask a couple more.) -Adam low-carb for LIFE

Response:

A very good friend suffered what looks like a mild hemorrhagic stroke a little over a week ago.  (She’s had a CAT scan – MRI is scheduled for Sunday – don’t get me started on the HMO wall we had to tear down sending her home.)  She’s doing well – her confusion is lifting, and she is much more like herself.  (Thank Gawd.) Anyway, she’s had high BP for a while, and she’s slightly to moderately overweight, and she tends to take care of everyone else in the world before herself, so she’s always running around like a lunatic.  She lives on Ho Hos and diet coke. She has some interest in LCing, but of course is now being told to eat low fat/low cholesterol.  I’d really like for her to be able to make an informed decision, rather than treating a nutritionsis’s recommendations as gospel.  Another good friend is an RN, which is, of course, not going to help the LC case. So, are there any websites, anecdotes, books, success stories, etc that anyone would like to share, especially with lowering BP in mind? She also has asthma, allergies and a cough that tends to start in mid-winter and hang on ’til spring, every year.  This year it didn’t go away, and she was put on Prednisone a day or so before the (possible) stroke. Short and sweet is preferable, since her eyes are bothered, her attention span is shorter than usual, and she tires easily.  I’d be very grateful for any information that might help. Thanks in advance, Nancy DeMarco

Response:

Print this out and maker her read it from top to bottom. http://www.nursingceu.com/NCEU/courses/diet/ And if she’s still not convinced, try this one (the first of 4 separate pages.) http://www.mercola.com/2001/jul/14/insulin.htm -Adam 240/188/190 low-carb for LIFE – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – A very good friend suffered what looks like a mild hemorrhagic stroke a little over a week ago.  (She’s had a CAT scan – MRI is scheduled for Sunday – don’t get me started on the HMO wall we had to tear down sending her home.)  She’s doing well – her confusion is lifting, and she is much more like herself.  (Thank Gawd.) Anyway, she’s had high BP for a while, and she’s slightly to moderately overweight, and she tends to take care of everyone else in the world before herself, so she’s always running around like a lunatic.  She lives on Ho Hos and diet coke. She has some interest in LCing, but of course is now being told to eat low fat/low cholesterol.  I’d really like for her to be able to make an informed decision, rather than treating a nutritionsis’s recommendations as gospel.  Another good friend is an RN, which is, of course, not going to help the LC case. So, are there any websites, anecdotes, books, success stories, etc that anyone would like to share, especially with lowering BP in mind? She also has asthma, allergies and a cough that tends to start in mid-winter and hang on ’til spring, every year.  This year it didn’t go away, and she was put on Prednisone a day or so before the (possible) stroke. Short and sweet is preferable, since her eyes are bothered, her attention span is shorter than usual, and she tires easily.  I’d be very grateful for any information that might help. Thanks in advance, Nancy DeMarco

Response:

Print this out and maker her read it from top to bottom. http://www.nursingceu.com/NCEU/courses/diet/ And if she’s still not convinced, try this one (the first of 4 separate pages.) http://www.mercola.com/2001/jul/14/insulin.htm -Adam 240/188/190 low-carb for LIFE

oops – I just re-read your note. I guess these are WAY too long and detailed. Wel… maybe you can read them and cut out the relevent sentences for her. If nothing else, these will help keep you motivated to convince her. -Adam – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – A very good friend suffered what looks like a mild hemorrhagic stroke a little over a week ago.  (She’s had a CAT scan – MRI is scheduled for Sunday – don’t get me started on the HMO wall we had to tear down sending her home.)  She’s doing well – her confusion is lifting, and she is much more like herself.  (Thank Gawd.) Anyway, she’s had high BP for a while, and she’s slightly to moderately overweight, and she tends to take care of everyone else in the world before herself, so she’s always running around like a lunatic.  She lives on Ho Hos and diet coke. She has some interest in LCing, but of course is now being told to eat low fat/low cholesterol.  I’d really like for her to be able to make an informed decision, rather than treating a nutritionsis’s recommendations as gospel.  Another good friend is an RN, which is, of course, not going to help the LC case. So, are there any websites, anecdotes, books, success stories, etc that anyone would like to share, especially with lowering BP in mind? She also has asthma, allergies and a cough that tends to start in mid-winter and hang on ’til spring, every year.  This year it didn’t go away, and she was put on Prednisone a day or so before the (possible) stroke. Short and sweet is preferable, since her eyes are bothered, her attention span is shorter than usual, and she tires easily.  I’d be very grateful for any information that might help. Thanks in advance, Nancy DeMarco

Response:

Go to http://www.google.com/ and type in ‘low fat diet’ + stroke . You will find many articles on the increased danger of hemmorrhagic stroke (particularly for women) with high blood pressure and a low fat diet. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – A very good friend suffered what looks like a mild hemorrhagic stroke a little over a week ago.  (She’s had a CAT scan – MRI is scheduled for Sunday – don’t get me started on the HMO wall we had to tear down sending her home.)  She’s doing well – her confusion is lifting, and she is much more like herself.  (Thank Gawd.) Anyway, she’s had high BP for a while, and she’s slightly to moderately overweight, and she tends to take care of everyone else in the world before herself, so she’s always running around like a lunatic.  She lives on Ho Hos and diet coke. She has some interest in LCing, but of course is now being told to eat low fat/low cholesterol.  I’d really like for her to be able to make an informed decision, rather than treating a nutritionsis’s recommendations as gospel.  Another good friend is an RN, which is, of course, not going to help the LC case. So, are there any websites, anecdotes, books, success stories, etc that anyone would like to share, especially with lowering BP in mind? She also has asthma, allergies and a cough that tends to start in mid-winter and hang on ’til spring, every year.  This year it didn’t go away, and she was put on Prednisone a day or so before the (possible) stroke. Short and sweet is preferable, since her eyes are bothered, her attention span is shorter than usual, and she tires easily.  I’d be very grateful for any information that might help. Thanks in advance, Nancy DeMarco

Response:

thank you for this link! it is long and wordy, but as a nurse, i now have yet another resource for CEUs. this one is ‘too old’ for credit, but there are lots of others that are interesting. if anyone wants to keep this article around, i would suggest copying it to a word doc, as it might go away since it’s out of circulation now. — jonalisa 380/200/160/130 (origninal start/current start/current/goal) 4′ 14 3/4"

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Print this out and maker her read it from top to bottom. http://www.nursingceu.com/NCEU/courses/diet/ And if she’s still not convinced, try this one (the first of 4 separate pages.) http://www.mercola.com/2001/jul/14/insulin.htm -Adam 240/188/190 low-carb for LIFE A very good friend suffered what looks like a mild hemorrhagic stroke a little over a week ago.  (She’s had a CAT scan – MRI is scheduled for Sunday – don’t get me started on the HMO wall we had to tear down sending her home.)  She’s doing well – her confusion is lifting, and she is much more like herself.  (Thank Gawd.) Anyway, she’s had high BP for a while, and she’s slightly to moderately overweight, and she tends to take care of everyone else in the world before herself, so she’s always running around like a lunatic.  She lives on Ho Hos and diet coke. She has some interest in LCing, but of course is now being told to eat low fat/low cholesterol.  I’d really like for her to be able to make an informed decision, rather than treating a nutritionsis’s recommendations as gospel.  Another good friend is an RN, which is, of course, not going to help the LC case. So, are there any websites, anecdotes, books, success stories, etc that anyone would like to share, especially with lowering BP in mind? She also has asthma, allergies and a cough that tends to start in mid-winter and hang on ’til spring, every year.  This year it didn’t go away, and she was put on Prednisone a day or so before the (possible) stroke. Short and sweet is preferable, since her eyes are bothered, her attention span is shorter than usual, and she tires easily.  I’d be very grateful for any information that might help. Thanks in advance, Nancy DeMarco

Response:

Question:

I had a geometry teacher in high school. Said, I decided a long time ago, that I am not going to teach. Teach yourselves. So we just sat and socialized like it was a study hall. The school couldn’t get rid of her because of tenure, and these insipid unions.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Sorry, but the whining about underpaid teachers is one of my pet peeves. Now you got me started…<g They work 180 days a year, and only work about 6 1/2 hours a day (and as I recall from HS they had 2/7th of that time off). They have tenure (which is a complete joke, tenure was meant for university professors engaged in potentially controversial research, not school teachers) so the incompetent ones can’t be fired. A good teacher works a hell of a lot more than 180 days a year and 6 1/2 hours a day. When do you think they grade papers and prepare lesson plans, Twilight Zone time?? Call parents and have teacher conferences? And teachers work much later into the summer and start earlier than kids, by far — an extra 4 weeks all told. My mother was a teacher and she was constantly busy. As for tenure, that’s not true, at least not here. I think you may be confusing pension with tenure. They can still fire you but like any government job it’s nearly impossible. So they figure out other ways to get rid of them. The county hired a principle for the school where my mother worked with the intention of driving the elderly teachers like my mother out before they could retire normally and receive pension. She psychologically abused them, put them down in front of the students, lied on evaluations, and more. One had a heart attack, the other retired early (sans pension), and my mother had 2 nervous breakdowns and a suicide attempt. And the bitch sent her a threatening letter in the mental hospital! My mother should have been able to retire by then too, she had more than 30 years of service, but she hadn’t joined the stupid "teacher’s club" when she first started (which wasn’t instituted then regardless) and hadn’t been in *that* for 30 years. A lot of other teachers her age were in the same boat. Plus, as they like to say, the three most important reasons to become a teacher: June, July, and August. Teachers work 2 weeks past when the kids leave and start 2 weeks before they come back. Amy — 03/11/01 Height: 5′7.5" — Lbs: 291/264/155 – 165 Waist: 44/40/28 — Size: 22/20/8

Response:

(Allison aka psycho) writes: What’s very sad?

Allison…my  nephew’s (who’s 8 and a type 1) endo at Johns Hopkins told my sister that instead of restricting his sugar/carbs to let him eat anything he wants and cover it with insulin. And of course my idiot sister buys into it (it’s easier for her)  His BG’s are all over the map now. How in the HELL is he going to learn how to controll his diabetes???  SHEESH!!! Tamera The Dancing Cat

Response:

Now *there’s* a pretty picture……<G

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hey, I figure it’s better than being anal explosive….. — Bird 170/150/125 5′2" Info about the Lowcarb Get-together in St. Louis: http://www.jaxworld.com/lowcarb/stlouis.html Join us September 14-16! Lowcarb Stories to Warm the Heart: http://www.jaxworld.com/lowcarb/stories.html JOIN US on the Undernet #lowcarb Channel! http://www.jaxworld.com/lowcarb/irc.html for info | Did somebody call me? | | Carmen, Queen of AR

Response:

When I was in high school (1980-84, was it really 20 years ago?), all teachers had two off-duty periods (out of seven) per day, to grade papers, etc. Department heads had three (I guess because they had more work to do). Most of my teachers graded papers during those two periods, some graded them while we were in their class, take a test or watching a movie. I guess it was their version of study hall. Few took work home. Most arrived minutes before we did, and left the parking lot in the afternoon before our bus even left. One year I had music last period, and the teacher (Ms Stein) let us leave class (and school) 5 minutes early, because she wanted to leave early as well. Music class the entire year consisted of listening to 98 Rock on the radio. That’s it, nothing else, the entire year. It was study hall, except we got to listen to the radio. She was tenured, and couldn’t be fired. You can thank the NEA (Teacher’s Union) for that.

Maybe some teachers get free periods but lots DON’T. Especially in a more crowded school… As all are now. My mother taught 3 languages and never had a free period the entire time she worked as a teacher (over 30 years). This was one of the better schools in Baltimore County, btw….

So were all the schools where my mother worked and I attended, good ol’ Baltimore County. Whether or not the administration tried to do something to Mrs 98 Rock, you will never know, but probably they simply didn’t care. These days the person will be demoted until they are so emotionally stressed to just give up whatever pension they should have had, if not fired outright. Maybe there was tenure in the 80s but there certainly isn’t now. Rich breeder parents rule the schools. Amy — 03/11/01 Height: 5′7.5" — Lbs: 291/264/155 – 165 Waist: 44/40/28 — Size: 22/20/8

Response:

Boy Amy, I wish that were true in my area.  :0(  Tenure Rules the World around here.  The teacher union seemingly protects bad teachers, and irresponsible school board members who haven’t a clue what goes on in the classroom give out continuing contracts like Halloween candy.  Then you’re stuck with them. In my district right now, they’re trying like fools to find a place for a woman who’s been on leave.  She’s HORRIBLE with children, can’t teach, hates everybody, but has more education than you and me combined, so she’s the highest-paid teacher in the whole system.  They hired someone to take her place while she was gone (Title I reading), and there’s actually teaching going on there now, so they won’t put her back in that classroom. Yet, they don’t want to give her any other assignment where she’d be with kids … is this PATHETIC or what?  But … that’s the union for ya … they freakin’ can’t fire her.  So – get this – they’re considering paying her $60k/year to monitor the in-school suspension room.  Go figure. |Maybe there | was tenure in the 80s but there certainly isn’t now. Rich breeder parents | rule the schools. | | Amy | — | 03/11/01 | Height: 5′7.5" — Lbs: 291/264/155 – 165 | Waist: 44/40/28 — Size: 22/20/8 |

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Thing is, the high IQ’s usually do have common sense. They tend to be in higher positions of responsibility and have greater social skills. High IQ is often associated with people with high math skills. It really couldn’t be further from the truth. People who have the highest math scores tend to have below average IQ’s. The highest IQ’s are virtually always horrible at math. (One reason SAT math, higher isn’t always better). They also tend to be more social and have more money in life. What people associate as smart but anti-social are usually cases of perceived intelligence over a low IQ (or in come cases, very low). Or book smarts as they say (dumb people reading books). (Which is the problem with academia these days). They couldn’t get the high paying grade school/high school teaching jobs and wound up taking a huge paycut and wasting years of there life achieving a Ph.D. . Which from what I see, isn’t much of an achievement. Prove it. I know someone who has an IQ of 178 and tried to boil water on the stove with a plastic container. Sure he was a teenager but um, really!

I have an IQ of 172.  You DEFINITELY do not want me as your doctor. I also have a keen inability to not be able to open doors.  Even if they’re unlocked.  But locked dorrs are nearly impossible. When I went away to college, my mother sat inside my locked dorm room while I practiced using my key.  You want me to perform surgery?  I think not. Cheers, Nina — SlackMistress 2.0 http://www.theslack.com "We are all awaiting the instant gratification granted us through the blessed affirmations of Her Royal Highness, The SlackMistress." -Mike Turco

Response:

Hey, I figure it’s better than being anal explosive….. — Bird 170/150/125 5′2" Info about the Lowcarb Get-together in St. Louis: http://www.jaxworld.com/lowcarb/stlouis.html Join us September 14-16! Lowcarb Stories to Warm the Heart: http://www.jaxworld.com/lowcarb/stories.html JOIN US on the Undernet #lowcarb Channel! http://www.jaxworld.com/lowcarb/irc.html for info

| Did somebody call me? | | Carmen, Queen of AR

Response:

Rents cheap around here. Look it up on-line, teaching isn’t one of the lowest anymore. If a teacher gets a Ph.D, he/she gets 90 in my district. This area I’m in right now is lower middle class. Sure, out of college they don’t start you at $75k like some students get, but its something to start out at. Professors are the ones being ripped off. They basically donate their time with a stipend. Your right about rents varying. In Greenwich CT, they start at around $40. In Silicon Valley, they start at 66k, but they can’t even afford their rent.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – 21k. There are college profs getting 21k, but the public schools around me start at 32 and max out at about 80. The colleges tend to pay about half (Full prof. at retirement might get 45. Although most never become a full prof. till late). (The big schools do pay fairly well like the big state schools and the University of Texas). And how much does rent cost? Teaching is one of the lowest paid professional jobs in the country. Amy — 03/11/01 Height: 5′7.5" — Lbs: 291/264/155 – 165 Waist: 44/40/28 — Size: 22/20/8

Response:

I feel your pain… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Cover story of U. S. News and World Report this week is on ‘the diabetes epidemic’. The article and sidebars detail how carbohydrates/obesity is causing unprecedented numbers of diabetics and details the major complications of diabetes (heart disease, blindness, kidney failure, peripheral neuropathy, peripheral vascular disease [with attendent necrosis/amputations], etc.). What do you suppose is the recommendations for controlling this epidemic? Exercise, LOW FAT/LOW CHOLESTEROL diet, drugs. After identifying the problems in some considerable detail and the causative agent (carbohydrates), it would seem logical that the writer of the article would perhaps suggest cutting back on the causative agent. But instead, with no justification whatsoever, the article suggests lowering dietary fat and cholesterol. I continue to be amazed. Has all logic and deductive reasoning disappeared from the medical community when it comes to diet? Just ranting. The above question is really rhetorical. I just hate to keep seeing good people die of a preventable disease (speaking of type II diabetes) and noting that almost every article giving advice to pre-diabetics and diabetics boils down to ‘keep eating what you are eating now, take medicine, and cut back on the fat/cholesterol’ and you will be OK — when every objective criteria positively screams that they will decidedly not be OK. I’m finished ranting now. I also know that nothing anyone can say or do will change the prevailing wisdom. Sigh.

– Jerry Wilson http://wilstar.com —- Want a new MASTERCARD with NO Credit Check???? You will Not be denied because of charge offs, slow pays or bad credit. Click here for GUARANTEED* ONLINE APPROVAL NOW! Click Here:  http://www.onresponse.com/onR_Ads.asp?a=51498&d=525

Response:

This is why instead of developing meaningless exams like the SAT and MCAT, we should use IQ. I have met more dumb doctors, professors and other individuals who lack what it takes. Imagine if business adopted it, triple digit quarterly productivity growth. And companies could not be led by the slow and dimwitted.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Cover story of U. S. News and World Report this week is on ‘the diabetes epidemic’. The article and sidebars detail how carbohydrates/obesity is causing unprecedented numbers of diabetics and details the major complications of diabetes (heart disease, blindness, kidney failure, peripheral neuropathy, peripheral vascular disease [with attendent necrosis/amputations], etc.). What do you suppose is the recommendations for controlling this epidemic? Exercise, LOW FAT/LOW CHOLESTEROL diet, drugs. After identifying the problems in some considerable detail and the causative agent (carbohydrates), it would seem logical that the writer of the article would perhaps suggest cutting back on the causative agent. But instead, with no justification whatsoever, the article suggests lowering dietary fat and cholesterol. I continue to be amazed. Has all logic and deductive reasoning disappeared from the medical community when it comes to diet? Just ranting. The above question is really rhetorical. I just hate to keep seeing good people die of a preventable disease (speaking of type II diabetes) and noting that almost every article giving advice to pre-diabetics and diabetics boils down to ‘keep eating what you are eating now, take medicine, and cut back on the fat/cholesterol’ and you will be OK — when every objective criteria positively screams that they will decidedly not be OK. I’m finished ranting now. I also know that nothing anyone can say or do will change the prevailing wisdom. Sigh.

Response:

IQ doesn’t guaranteee the discipline and temperment to be a good doctor.  I know some very bright folks, who are incredibly disorganized – I think the best doctors are all anal retentive. — -Beth, Pseudo usenet cop BikeE FX, AT and rans gliss Anchorage, Alaska http://home.gci.net/~dawg/

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – This is why instead of developing meaningless exams like the SAT and MCAT, we should use IQ. I have met more dumb doctors, professors and other individuals who lack what it takes. Imagine if business adopted it, triple digit quarterly productivity growth. And companies could not be led by the slow and dimwitted. Cover story of U. S. News and World Report this week is on ‘the diabetes epidemic’. The article and sidebars detail how carbohydrates/obesity is causing unprecedented numbers of diabetics and details the major complications of diabetes (heart disease, blindness, kidney failure, peripheral neuropathy, peripheral vascular disease [with attendent necrosis/amputations], etc.). What do you suppose is the recommendations for controlling this epidemic? Exercise, LOW FAT/LOW CHOLESTEROL diet, drugs. After identifying the problems in some considerable detail and the causative agent (carbohydrates), it would seem logical that the writer of the article would perhaps suggest cutting back on the causative agent. But instead, with no justification whatsoever, the article suggests lowering dietary fat and cholesterol. I continue to be amazed. Has all logic and deductive reasoning disappeared from the medical community when it comes to diet? Just ranting. The above question is really rhetorical. I just hate to keep seeing good people die of a preventable disease (speaking of type II diabetes) and noting that almost every article giving advice to pre-diabetics and diabetics boils down to ‘keep eating what you are eating now, take medicine, and cut back on the fat/cholesterol’ and you will be OK — when every objective criteria positively screams that they will decidedly not be OK. I’m finished ranting now. I also know that nothing anyone can say or do will change the prevailing wisdom. Sigh.

Response:

Sorry, but the whining about underpaid teachers is one of my pet peeves. Now you got me started…<g They work 180 days a year, and only work about 6 1/2 hours a day (and as I recall from HS they had 2/7th of that time off). They have tenure (which is a complete joke, tenure was meant for university professors engaged in potentially controversial research, not school teachers) so the incompetent ones can’t be fired. A good teacher works a hell of a lot more than 180 days a year and 6 1/2 hours a day. When do you think they grade papers and prepare lesson plans, Twilight Zone time??

When I was in high school (1980-84, was it really 20 years ago?), all teachers had two off-duty periods (out of seven) per day, to grade papers, etc. Department heads had three (I guess because they had more work to do). Most of my teachers graded papers during those two periods, some graded them while we were in their class, take a test or watching a movie. I guess it was their version of study hall. Few took work home. Most arrived minutes before we did, and left the parking lot in the afternoon before our bus even left. One year I had music last period, and the teacher (Ms Stein) let us leave class (and school) 5 minutes early, because she wanted to leave early as well. Music class the entire year consisted of listening to 98 Rock on the radio. That’s it, nothing else, the entire year. It was study hall, except we got to listen to the radio. She was tenured, and couldn’t be fired. You can thank the NEA (Teacher’s Union) for that. This was one of the better schools in Baltimore County, btw…. Chris 248/196/175

Response:

Did somebody call me? Carmen, Queen of AR

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – IQ doesn’t guaranteee the discipline and temperment to be a good doctor. I know some very bright folks, who are incredibly disorganized – I think the best doctors are all anal retentive. — -Beth, Pseudo usenet cop BikeE FX, AT and rans gliss Anchorage, Alaska http://home.gci.net/~dawg/ This is why instead of developing meaningless exams like the SAT and MCAT, we should use IQ. I have met more dumb doctors, professors and other individuals who lack what it takes. Imagine if business adopted it, triple digit quarterly productivity growth. And companies could not be led by the slow and dimwitted. Cover story of U. S. News and World Report this week is on ‘the diabetes epidemic’. The article and sidebars detail how carbohydrates/obesity is causing unprecedented numbers of diabetics and details the major complications of diabetes (heart disease, blindness, kidney failure, peripheral neuropathy, peripheral vascular disease [with attendent necrosis/amputations], etc.). What do you suppose is the recommendations for controlling this epidemic? Exercise, LOW FAT/LOW CHOLESTEROL diet, drugs. After identifying the problems in some considerable detail and the causative agent (carbohydrates), it would seem logical that the writer of the article would perhaps suggest cutting back on the causative agent. But instead, with no justification whatsoever, the article suggests lowering dietary fat and cholesterol. I continue to be amazed. Has all logic and deductive reasoning disappeared from the medical community when it comes to diet? Just ranting. The above question is really rhetorical. I just hate to keep seeing good people die of a preventable disease (speaking of type II diabetes) and noting that almost every article giving advice to pre-diabetics and diabetics boils down to ‘keep eating what you are eating now, take medicine, and cut back on the fat/cholesterol’ and you will be OK — when every objective criteria positively screams that they will decidedly not be OK. I’m finished ranting now. I also know that nothing anyone can say or do will change the prevailing wisdom. Sigh.

Response:

What’s very sad? A friend at work who is diabetic that photocopied some recipes for me from his diabetic magazine.  Banana spice cake–47 grams carb *per serving* which called for 3 lbs bananas, 1.5 cups flour, 1 cup confectioners sugar, orange juice and sugar.  And the comment from the person who submitted the recipe said her family loves this "healthy" snack. ARRRRRRRGGGGGHHHHHHHH!!!!! allison *who has a flat spot on her forehead now* – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Cover story of U. S. News and World Report this week is on ‘the diabetes epidemic’. The article and sidebars detail how carbohydrates/obesity is causing unprecedented numbers of diabetics and details the major complications of diabetes (heart disease, blindness, kidney failure, peripheral neuropathy, peripheral vascular disease [with attendent necrosis/amputations], etc.). What do you suppose is the recommendations for controlling this epidemic? Exercise, LOW FAT/LOW CHOLESTEROL diet, drugs. After identifying the problems in some considerable detail and the causative agent (carbohydrates), it would seem logical that the writer of the article would perhaps suggest cutting back on the causative agent. But instead, with no justification whatsoever, the article suggests lowering dietary fat and cholesterol. I continue to be amazed. Has all logic and deductive reasoning disappeared from the medical community when it comes to diet? Just ranting. The above question is really rhetorical. I just hate to keep seeing good people die of a preventable disease (speaking of type II diabetes) and noting that almost every article giving advice to pre-diabetics and diabetics boils down to ‘keep eating what you are eating now, take medicine, and cut back on the fat/cholesterol’ and you will be OK — when every objective criteria positively screams that they will decidedly not be OK. I’m finished ranting now. I also know that nothing anyone can say or do will change the prevailing wisdom. Sigh.

Response:

This is why instead of developing meaningless exams like the SAT and MCAT, we should use IQ. I have met more dumb doctors, professors and other individuals who lack what it takes. Imagine if business adopted it, triple digit quarterly productivity growth. And companies could not be led by the slow and dimwitted.

IQ doesn’t prove that the person has common sense, or the ability to focus and do work, hold a job, or even navigate simple social situations. In fact, quite a few very intelligent people are practically stupid when it comes to common sense! I’ve known several of them, a relative included. Sure they may be able to do the differential equation in their head since they were 5 but they can’t get a date or hold simple smalltalk with a stranger in line. Emotional IQ is a much better measurement of whether someone is a productive human being, though I doubt there are any really good ways of measuring it (like IQ). Amy — 03/11/01 Height: 5′7.5" — Lbs: 291/264/155 – 165 Waist: 44/40/28 — Size: 22/20/8

Response:

Thing is, the high IQ’s usually do have common sense. They tend to be in higher positions of responsibility and have greater social skills. High IQ is often associated with people with high math skills. It really couldn’t be further from the truth. People who have the highest math scores tend to have below average IQ’s. The highest IQ’s are virtually always horrible at math. (One reason SAT math, higher isn’t always better). They also tend to be more social and have more money in life. What people associate as smart but anti-social are usually cases of perceived intelligence over a low IQ (or in come cases, very low). Or book smarts as they say (dumb people reading books). (Which is the problem with academia these days). They couldn’t get the high paying grade school/high school teaching jobs and wound up taking a huge paycut and wasting years of there life achieving a Ph.D. . Which from what I see, isn’t much of an achievement.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – This is why instead of developing meaningless exams like the SAT and MCAT, we should use IQ. I have met more dumb doctors, professors and other individuals who lack what it takes. Imagine if business adopted it, triple digit quarterly productivity growth. And companies could not be led by the slow and dimwitted. IQ doesn’t prove that the person has common sense, or the ability to focus and do work, hold a job, or even navigate simple social situations. In fact, quite a few very intelligent people are practically stupid when it comes to common sense! I’ve known several of them, a relative included. Sure they may be able to do the differential equation in their head since they were 5 but they can’t get a date or hold simple smalltalk with a stranger in line. Emotional IQ is a much better measurement of whether someone is a productive human being, though I doubt there are any really good ways of measuring it (like IQ). Amy — 03/11/01 Height: 5′7.5" — Lbs: 291/264/155 – 165 Waist: 44/40/28 — Size: 22/20/8

Response:

Thing is, the high IQ’s usually do have common sense. They tend to be in higher positions of responsibility and have greater social skills. High IQ is often associated with people with high math skills. It really couldn’t be further from the truth. People who have the highest math scores tend to have below average IQ’s. The highest IQ’s are virtually always horrible at math. (One reason SAT math, higher isn’t always better). They also tend to be more social and have more money in life. What people associate as smart but anti-social are usually cases of perceived intelligence over a low IQ (or in come cases, very low). Or book smarts as they say (dumb people reading books). (Which is the problem with academia these days). They couldn’t get the high paying grade school/high school teaching jobs and wound up taking a huge paycut and wasting years of there life achieving a Ph.D. . Which from what I see, isn’t much of an achievement.

Prove it. I know someone who has an IQ of 178 and tried to boil water on the stove with a plastic container. Sure he was a teenager but um, really! My brother is off the charts, frighteningly smart, getting his PhD in quantum physics — on someone else’s buck. Perfect SATs, of course, but that’s not all that amazing in and of itself. He was the only undergrad to be selected to go to CERN a few years ago (only 6 people in the entire country, everyone else was post-grad). And I know from first-hand experience it’s not him being a "dumb person who reads books," not that booksmarts means that at all. And he has absolutely NO SOCIAL SENSE. I love him but it’s his downfall. He’s what people (who know what they’re talking about) would call emotional IQ deficient. My father is the same way, and actually understands the sh** my brother talks about in terms of physics, and he flunked out of college and worked as everything from a hardware store clerk to his current position as prepress director in one of the biggest enthusiast media publication companies in the world. My mother, on the other hand, is probably not very high IQ but is very sensible and has a PhD. Me, I dropped out of HS in the first 6 months, finished my education homeschooling myself, moved out at 17, and own my own business. I am horrible at math but excellent in any soft science as well as drawing, painting, writing, designing, and photography (none of which my brother can do worth half a lick). I got a 1300 equiv on the PSATs but am scared to death of the SATs. Having a high IQ does not suggest success in anything. It just says you can understand certain things quickly. Furthermore, high-paying teaching jobs?! What planet are you on? Here a teacher starts at $21k a year and NO PAY for 3 months out of the year. If you start at 21 you will be almost 50 years old when you reach $40k, which is the average for the country at large last I checked. And before you call PhD’s a questionable achievement, go get one yourself. I respect your input on dieting but I think in this case you know not whereof you speak. You’re romanticizing something that is simply nothing but a cold, hard measurement of how quickly someone understands arbirtrary connetions between items on a test. What you are saying is simply not more true of people with high IQs than any average, gregarious person.. Amy — 03/11/01 Height: 5′7.5" — Lbs: 291/264/155 – 165 Waist: 44/40/28 — Size: 22/20/8

Response:

Chris, what do you do for a living? — Bird 170/150/125 5′2" Info about the Lowcarb Get-together in St. Louis: http://www.jaxworld.com/lowcarb/stlouis.html Join us September 14-16! Lowcarb Stories to Warm the Heart: http://www.jaxworld.com/lowcarb/stories.html JOIN US on the Undernet #lowcarb Channel! http://www.jaxworld.com/lowcarb/irc.html for info

|Not bad for working about half the hours as | the rest of us.

Response:

Chris I hope you get blasted for this post. There are few more important jobs than teaching and there’s no question that teachers are generally underpaid. Anyone who thinks otherwise simply isn’t tuned into the facts. Your statement that they just work 6 1/2 hours a day and 180 days a year shows how little you know. I volunteer in the library of an elementary school and I know the dedication involved in being a teachers. They don’t teach to get rich and they don’t teach because they are lazy. It’s June 20 where I live and the teachers are still at school. They’ll be back in mid-August to prepare for next year. Get real. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -It all depends on three factors: Location, location, and location. My aunt retired two years ago (suburban Philadelphia), at about age 55, she was around $70k per year. Not bad for working about half the hours as the rest of us. It all depends on the school district. Here in Maryland, teachers in Montgomery and Howard counties do extremely well, starting salaries are in the upper $30k range from the last newspaper article I read (some time ago, probably higher now). I bet a lot make more than my aunt did. Sorry, but the whining about underpaid teachers is one of my pet peeves. Now you got me started…<g They work 180 days a year, and only work about 6 1/2 hours a day (and as I recall from HS they had 2/7th of that time off). They have tenure (which is a complete joke, tenure was meant for university professors engaged in potentially controversial research, not school teachers) so the incompetent ones can’t be fired. Plus, as they like to say, the three most important reasons to become a teacher: June, July, and August. Chris 248/196/175

Response:

21k. There are college profs getting 21k, but the public schools around me start at 32 and max out at about 80. The colleges tend to pay about half (Full prof. at retirement might get 45. Although most never become a full prof. till late). (The big schools do pay fairly well like the big state schools and the University of Texas).

And how much does rent cost? Teaching is one of the lowest paid professional jobs in the country. Amy — 03/11/01 Height: 5′7.5" — Lbs: 291/264/155 – 165 Waist: 44/40/28 — Size: 22/20/8

Response:

Sorry, but the whining about underpaid teachers is one of my pet peeves. Now you got me started…<g They work 180 days a year, and only work about 6 1/2 hours a day (and as I recall from HS they had 2/7th of that time off). They have tenure (which is a complete joke, tenure was meant for university professors engaged in potentially controversial research, not school teachers) so the incompetent ones can’t be fired.

A good teacher works a hell of a lot more than 180 days a year and 6 1/2 hours a day. When do you think they grade papers and prepare lesson plans, Twilight Zone time?? Call parents and have teacher conferences? And teachers work much later into the summer and start earlier than kids, by far — an extra 4 weeks all told. My mother was a teacher and she was constantly busy. As for tenure, that’s not true, at least not here. I think you may be confusing pension with tenure. They can still fire you but like any government job it’s nearly impossible. So they figure out other ways to get rid of them. The county hired a principle for the school where my mother worked with the intention of driving the elderly teachers like my mother out before they could retire normally and receive pension. She psychologically abused them, put them down in front of the students, lied on evaluations, and more. One had a heart attack, the other retired early (sans pension), and my mother had 2 nervous breakdowns and a suicide attempt. And the bitch sent her a threatening letter in the mental hospital! My mother should have been able to retire by then too, she had more than 30 years of service, but she hadn’t joined the stupid "teacher’s club" when she first started (which wasn’t instituted then regardless) and hadn’t been in *that* for 30 years. A lot of other teachers her age were in the same boat. Plus, as they like to say, the three most important reasons to become a teacher: June, July, and August.

Teachers work 2 weeks past when the kids leave and start 2 weeks before they come back. Amy — 03/11/01 Height: 5′7.5" — Lbs: 291/264/155 – 165 Waist: 44/40/28 — Size: 22/20/8

Response:

Furthermore, high-paying teaching jobs?! What planet are you on? Here a teacher starts at $21k a year and NO PAY for 3 months out of the year. If you start at 21 you will be almost 50 years old when you reach $40k, which is the average for the country at large last I checked.

It all depends on three factors: Location, location, and location. My aunt retired two years ago (suburban Philadelphia), at about age 55, she was around $70k per year. Not bad for working about half the hours as the rest of us. It all depends on the school district. Here in Maryland, teachers in Montgomery and Howard counties do extremely well, starting salaries are in the upper $30k range from the last newspaper article I read (some time ago, probably higher now). I bet a lot make more than my aunt did. Sorry, but the whining about underpaid teachers is one of my pet peeves. Now you got me started…<g They work 180 days a year, and only work about 6 1/2 hours a day (and as I recall from HS they had 2/7th of that time off). They have tenure (which is a complete joke, tenure was meant for university professors engaged in potentially controversial research, not school teachers) so the incompetent ones can’t be fired. Plus, as they like to say, the three most important reasons to become a teacher: June, July, and August. Chris 248/196/175

Response:

To paraphrase someone else on this newsgroup… The American Diabetes Association does a very good job… of promoting diabetes. Much as we sit back and laugh (or cry) about doctors in the 1700’s who bled patients with leeches, and tried to restore their balance of "humours", people a century or two from now will laugh (or cry) about how we encouraged diabetics to each high carb diets. Kind of like prescribing an alcoholic to drink a six pack a day. My boss has seen the weight I’ve lost, and says he wants to lose some himself. I told him how I did it. So what does he eat? Raman noodles, bananas, and corn on the cob. Chris 248/196/175 – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – What’s very sad? A friend at work who is diabetic that photocopied some recipes for me from his diabetic magazine.  Banana spice cake–47 grams carb *per serving* which called for 3 lbs bananas, 1.5 cups flour, 1 cup confectioners sugar, orange juice and sugar.  And the comment from the person who submitted the recipe said her family loves this "healthy" snack. ARRRRRRRGGGGGHHHHHHHH!!!!! allison *who has a flat spot on her forehead now*

Response:

21k. There are college profs getting 21k, but the public schools around me start at 32 and max out at about 80. The colleges tend to pay about half (Full prof. at retirement might get 45. Although most never become a full prof. till late). (The big schools do pay fairly well like the big state schools and the University of Texas).

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Thing is, the high IQ’s usually do have common sense. They tend to be in higher positions of responsibility and have greater social skills. High IQ is often associated with people with high math skills. It really couldn’t be further from the truth. People who have the highest math scores tend to have below average IQ’s. The highest IQ’s are virtually always horrible at math. (One reason SAT math, higher isn’t always better). They also tend to be more social and have more money in life. What people associate as smart but anti-social are usually cases of perceived intelligence over a low IQ (or in come cases, very low). Or book smarts as they say (dumb people reading books). (Which is the problem with academia these days). They couldn’t get the high paying grade school/high school teaching jobs and wound up taking a huge paycut and wasting years of there life achieving a Ph.D. . Which from what I see, isn’t much of an achievement. Prove it. I know someone who has an IQ of 178 and tried to boil water on the stove with a plastic container. Sure he was a teenager but um, really! My brother is off the charts, frighteningly smart, getting his PhD in quantum physics — on someone else’s buck. Perfect SATs, of course, but that’s not all that amazing in and of itself. He was the only undergrad to be selected to go to CERN a few years ago (only 6 people in the entire country, everyone else was post-grad). And I know from first-hand experience it’s not him being a "dumb person who reads books," not that booksmarts means that at all. And he has absolutely NO SOCIAL SENSE. I love him but it’s his downfall. He’s what people (who know what they’re talking about) would call emotional IQ deficient. My father is the same way, and actually understands the sh** my brother talks about in terms of physics, and he flunked out of college and worked as everything from a hardware store clerk to his current position as prepress director in one of the biggest enthusiast media publication companies in the world. My mother, on the other hand, is probably not very high IQ but is very sensible and has a PhD. Me, I dropped out of HS in the first 6 months, finished my education homeschooling myself, moved out at 17, and own my own business. I am horrible at math but excellent in any soft science as well as drawing, painting, writing, designing, and photography (none of which my brother can do worth half a lick). I got a 1300 equiv on the PSATs but am scared to death of the SATs. Having a high IQ does not suggest success in anything. It just says you can understand certain things quickly. Furthermore, high-paying teaching jobs?! What planet are you on? Here a teacher starts at $21k a year and NO PAY for 3 months out of the year. If you start at 21 you will be almost 50 years old when you reach $40k, which is the average for the country at large last I checked. And before you call PhD’s a questionable achievement, go get one yourself. I respect your input on dieting but I think in this case you know not whereof you speak. You’re romanticizing something that is simply nothing but a cold, hard measurement of how quickly someone understands arbirtrary connetions between items on a test. What you are saying is simply not more true of people with high IQs than any average, gregarious person.. Amy — 03/11/01 Height: 5′7.5" — Lbs: 291/264/155 – 165 Waist: 44/40/28 — Size: 22/20/8

Response:

Cover story of U. S. News and World Report this week is on ‘the diabetes epidemic’. The article and sidebars detail how carbohydrates/obesity is causing unprecedented numbers of diabetics and details the major complications of diabetes (heart disease, blindness, kidney failure, peripheral neuropathy, peripheral vascular disease [with attendent necrosis/amputations], etc.). What do you suppose is the recommendations for controlling this epidemic? Exercise, LOW FAT/LOW CHOLESTEROL diet, drugs. After identifying the problems in some considerable detail and the causative agent (carbohydrates), it would seem logical that the writer of the article would perhaps suggest cutting back on the causative agent. But instead, with no justification whatsoever, the article suggests lowering dietary fat and cholesterol. I continue to be amazed. Has all logic and deductive reasoning disappeared from the medical community when it comes to diet? Just ranting. The above question is really rhetorical. I just hate to keep seeing good people die of a preventable disease (speaking of type II diabetes) and noting that almost every article giving advice to pre-diabetics and diabetics boils down to ‘keep eating what you are eating now, take medicine, and cut back on the fat/cholesterol’ and you will be OK — when every objective criteria positively screams that they will decidedly not be OK. I’m finished ranting now. I also know that nothing anyone can say or do will change the prevailing wisdom. Sigh.

Response:

Question:

I wonder if any of you cruise gurus have noticed if Princess, or any of the lines, will attempt to accommodate people on special diets.  I am not talking vegan or Muslim or fruitarian, but things like liquid-only or soft-food.  Someone told me that at lunch and dinner, they offer more than 2 choices of soups.  Were they really good?

Response:

I wonder if any of you cruise gurus have noticed if Princess, or any of the lines, will attempt to accommodate people on special diets.  I am not talking vegan or Muslim or fruitarian, but things like liquid-only or soft-food.  Someone told me that at lunch and dinner, they offer more than 2 choices of soups.  Were they really good?

At dinner there was always three soup choices, usually one was a chilled fruity variety. For the most part they were pretty good – some were excellent and some were so-so. Aside from the soups (some had bits of solid matter), I’m not sure how they would accomodate a liquid diet (although on sea days, i pretty much kept to a liquid diet of pina coladas and "drinks of the day"). Soft foods would be easier, but might still present a challenge. I know Princess 9and the other lines) can easily acommodate a vegetarian, low salt or low fat/cholesterol diet, but not sure what they’ll be able to do for you as far as liquid/softs goes. Lee

Response:

Good Morning: It has been my experience, and reported by clients, that Princess Galley staff will do everything possible to accomodate special diet needs. They really do appreciate advance notice however so be sure your agent has communicated this to the proper departments at Princess and you should reconfirm as soon as you board the ship. Have a great Cruise. Cal Ford Lido Deck Cruises says… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -I wonder if any of you cruise gurus have noticed if Princess, or any of the lines, will attempt to accommodate people on special diets.  I am not talking vegan or Muslim or fruitarian, but things like liquid-only or soft-food.  Someone told me that at lunch and dinner, they offer more than 2 choices of soups.  Were they really good?

Response:

GREETINGS ALL One of the many pleasures of cruising is the food. Further, the soups always are a treat to me. The chilled soups are most interesting . Cruising is a state of mind!!!            HAPPY RAILS TO YOU                     CRICK                    

Response:

Princess soups are usually very good, even if you are not part of the GGC’s. They usually have several at the buffet for lunch, and a couple more in the dining room, so there is a very good selection.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I wonder if any of you cruise gurus have noticed if Princess, or any of the lines, will attempt to accommodate people on special diets.  I am not talking vegan or Muslim or fruitarian, but things like liquid-only or soft-food.  Someone told me that at lunch and dinner, they offer more than 2 choices of soups.  Were they really good?

Response:

Okay, I’ll bite…what’s a GGC? Princess soups are usually very good, even if you are not part of the

GGC’s.

Response:

Okay, I’ll bite…what’s a GGC?

GGC is the Great Group Cult. When you say soft food, would pasta be in this catagory? Princess has pasta course at every dinner and also has pasta’s on the menu at lunch in both the buffet and dining room.

Response:

The GGC is short for Group Gone Crazy.  It’s when people become obsessed and carry on trying to solicit people to go on a cruise.  It’s when they openly argue over prices with other agents who feel slighted because they were not, nor will they ever be eligible to bid on it because they don’t own their own agency.  It’s a virus that starts off slowly enough, but after a couple of weeks it peaks (right about now) and starts creeping into every post on the board. Once the GGC disease hits, one out of every three posts here are about one Gone Crazy group or another.  (66 our of 231 so far today). It only gets worse, until people start making Deposits, then it starts dropping off again.  One or two of the ANS (agents not selected) will start raising hell and undercutting the prices and advertising for business here, but nobody cares because they have all Gone Crazy (GC).  Instead of starting each post with the letters GC so people who are not interested can easily skip over the messages, they start  messages with titles such as test to start yet another discussion about yet another GC. Because they assume that everybody here cares about the GC posts, they don’t bother to make them easy to separate out.  That would make it very easy for those of us not interested in the Group Gone Crazy to tell our newsreaders to filter out those messages, but because the GGC has gone crazy, simple newsreader etiquette goes out the door.  It doesn’t matter, once the virus starts, it’s only a matter of time before pretty much every post has something to do with one GC or another. There are many strains of the disease this year, the GGC, EGC, FGC, AGC, and now the GGC has mutated into the GGGC. You get neat stuff, like a secret decoder ring so they will be able to tell who is from Group Gone Crazy (GGC), the Alternative Gone Crazies (AGC), the EGC, and the FGC’s.  Depending on which group you pick you will have to HYSY (haul your suitcases yourself) from the ATHTP (airport to hotel to pier) where you will have to WILF (wait in line forever), and there for be classified a lower class of citizen because you don’t possess the secret decoder ring (SDR).  You will get to form into discrete groups of people getting free drinks on certain nights on the ship, depending on which GC you become a member.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Okay, I’ll bite…what’s a GGC? Princess soups are usually very good, even if you are not part of the GGC’s.

Response:

Great Group Cruise voted on & discussed in R.T.C. and attended by lots of its readers each year. there have been 4 so far the next one is next January www.ggc2002.com don’t listen to the naysayers,,, it is a wonderful means of fellowship & fun!  some readers would not even consider the GGC’s even if they were free,, well we feel sorry for them as they do not know what they are missing! Muffin booked on the Genuine GGC2002! – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Okay, I’ll bite…what’s a GGC? Princess soups are usually very good, even if you are not part of the GGC’s.

Response:

Well, sometimes pasta will stay down, but really, soups and applesauce and meal replacement drinks and pedialite keep me alive. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – When you say soft food, would pasta be in this catagory? Princess has pasta course at every dinner and also has pasta’s on the menu at lunch in both the buffet and dining room.

Response:

Amen! During the time I’ve been participating on this newsgroup, and in the egroups, I’ve seen amazing extremes of human behavior! I’ve seen requests for emotional support that were met overwhelmingly, sometimes with results that seemed pretty incredible. But, OTOH, I have seen the other side of a group mentality…. I see people lower themselves by attacking someone, often without giving much thought to what they are saying (meaning that they are factually wrong, way too often), merely to amuse their friends. I’m one of the people who was on the wait list for a single cabin on the GGC2002. I have been aware that there are now cabins available, but I’m just not sure how I feel about booking one. Yes, there are people who, as individuals, I think I’d very much like to meet… but I am concerned about the dynamics…. I don’t know that I want to be "in" with the group, don’t think that there would be any advantage for me, as a single, to book unless that was my objective. Marsha, frustrated, confused, bemused and a whole bunch of other things!

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – The GGC is short for Group Gone Crazy.  It’s when people become obsessed and carry on trying to solicit people to go on a cruise.  It’s when they openly argue over prices with other agents who feel slighted because they were not, nor will they ever be eligible to bid on it because they don’t own their own agency.  It’s a virus that starts off slowly enough, but after a couple of weeks it peaks (right about now) and starts creeping into every post on the board. Once the GGC disease hits, one out of every three posts here are about one Gone Crazy group or another.  (66 our of 231 so far today). It only gets worse, until people start making Deposits, then it starts dropping off again.  One or two of the ANS (agents not selected) will start raising hell and undercutting the prices and advertising for business here, but nobody cares because they have all Gone Crazy (GC).  Instead of starting each post with the letters GC so people who are not interested can easily skip over the messages, they start  messages with titles such as test to start yet another discussion about yet another GC. Because they assume that everybody here cares about the GC posts, they don’t bother to make them easy to separate out.  That would make it very easy for those of us not interested in the Group Gone Crazy to tell our newsreaders to filter out those messages, but because the GGC has gone crazy, simple newsreader etiquette goes out the door.  It doesn’t matter, once the virus starts, it’s only a matter of time before pretty much every post has something to do with one GC or another. There are many strains of the disease this year, the GGC, EGC, FGC, AGC, and now the GGC has mutated into the GGGC. You get neat stuff, like a secret decoder ring so they will be able to tell who is from Group Gone Crazy (GGC), the Alternative Gone Crazies (AGC), the EGC, and the FGC’s.  Depending on which group you pick you will have to HYSY (haul your suitcases yourself) from the ATHTP (airport to hotel to pier) where you will have to WILF (wait in line forever), and there for be classified a lower class of citizen because you don’t possess the secret decoder ring (SDR).  You will get to form into discrete groups of people getting free drinks on certain nights on the ship, depending on which GC you become a member. Okay, I’ll bite…what’s a GGC? Princess soups are usually very good, even if you are not part of the GGC’s.

Response:

Mike:  I am really shocked by your tirade against the GGC. It is so unlike you. What is so surprising is that you have so much to say about the GGC, and yet you know so little about it. Since you have never been on a GGC cruise with a lot of friendly fun-loving people you will never know what it is like…..and, sadly, what your are missing.    Peter que sera sera I`m booked on the GGC2002 www.GGC2002.com

Response:

GREETINGS MIKE C I note, with minor interest, that your dissertation an GGC is in a NON GGC  thread.  By the way Mike BITE ME CRICK

Response:

Actually, it was in answer to a direct question asked about it.  The original reply was about soups on Princess, which is the thread. Had the thread been moved then the poster would never have seen the answer. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – GREETINGS MIKE C I note, with minor interest, that your dissertation an GGC is in a NON GGC  thread.  By the way Mike BITE ME CRICK

Response:

I’ve got nothing against the cruise, those going will have a blast.  I’m against what the constant and petty bickering over stupid things like names on people’s doors has done to the newsgroup.  Tonight, over half the posts were one thing or another about the various groups, agent selection, logos, lines, etc. It’s my opinion, which others have very clearly explained to me in e-mails and posts I’m not entitled to (which is why being an elitist has nothing to do with the cost of the cruise).  I hope those going have a great time. It’s just a shame, again my opinion and those who have agreed, what it’s done to what use to be a very good newsgroup, which now is nothing but a place to bitch about each other.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Mike:  I am really shocked by your tirade against the GGC. It is so unlike you. What is so surprising is that you have so much to say about the GGC, and yet you know so little about it. Since you have never been on a GGC cruise with a lot of friendly fun-loving people you will never know what it is like…..and, sadly, what your are missing.    Peter que sera sera I`m booked on the GGC2002 www.GGC2002.com

Response:

Sorry Mike; but you are reaching for straws when you said: <<….I am against what the constant and petty bickering over stupid things like names on doors has done to the newsgroup      Not once has names on doors been brought up, or bickered about. All the other items that you mention are the very things that have always been discussed on this newsgroup….and, without any kind of the bickering that you mention. So what is really your point in even raising these issues. Your bickering certainly isn`t helping to calm these waters, is it? que sera sera I`m booked on the GGC2002 www.GGC2002.com

Response:

Sorry, but I believe you are mistaken.  You would want to look at posts from Feb 6, March 20, April 9, April 11, and probably others, where name tags and door tags are discussed as a means of identifying others on the cruise, and as one said to identify who can benefit from the groups activities and camaraderie.   They were also mentioned as a reason to take the official group cruise over anybody else booking space on that trip, for the name tags on the door.  I can’t make this stuff up. Lee also quotes somebody in his reply. It’s not worth my discussing anymore, and it only goes on to further what my initial post was about, so I’m dropping out of this silliness.  I’ve tried to make my point, which of course some agree with and some don’t, but belaboring the issue is just a further waste of what little space is left in this group actually discussing cruising.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Sorry Mike; but you are reaching for straws when you said: <<….I am against what the constant and petty bickering over stupid things like names on doors has done to the newsgroup    Not once has names on doors been brought up, or bickered about. All the other items that you mention are the very things that have always been discussed on this newsgroup….and, without any kind of the bickering that you mention. So what is really your point in even raising these issues. Your bickering certainly isn`t helping to calm these waters, is it? que sera sera I`m booked on the GGC2002 www.GGC2002.com

Response:

but belaboring the issue is just a further waste of what little space is left in this group actually discussing cruising.

…and soup choices, too.  How did this thread get from soup to nuts? (Just having a laugh, nothing personal toward anyone here) Kit

Response:

That would be my fault probably, I made a snippy comment about everybody on Princess getting good soups (and their Clam Chowder is to die for) weather or not they were part of a group. But seriously, I don’t think we should be discussing nuts either, be it the kind going on the cruise, or the kinds you eat, they certainly don’t constitute soft food. For the person who asked the question, how soft does soft have to be? Scallops, the pasta’s, certainly some of the veggies they mash up, soups, etc may all be good choices.  Ice creams, gellato’s, sherbets, and the best creme brule (OK, that isn’t spelled correct) I’ve ever had may also be good choices. The pasta’s tend to be very "al dente" on Princess, so you may ask they cook it a bit longer if it’s an issue.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – but belaboring the issue is just a further waste of what little space is left in this group actually discussing cruising. …and soup choices, too.  How did this thread get from soup to nuts? (Just having a laugh, nothing personal toward anyone here) Kit

Response:

And there is my all time favorite dessert at sea, Princess version of Panna Cotta, a silky custard that makes creme caramel seem coarse and boring. Carole cruzdiva2cruisemates.com

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – That would be my fault probably, I made a snippy comment about everybody on Princess getting good soups (and their Clam Chowder is to die for) weather or not they were part of a group. But seriously, I don’t think we should be discussing nuts either, be it the kind going on the cruise, or the kinds you eat, they certainly don’t constitute soft food. For the person who asked the question, how soft does soft have to be? Scallops, the pasta’s, certainly some of the veggies they mash up, soups, etc may all be good choices.  Ice creams, gellato’s, sherbets, and the best creme brule (OK, that isn’t spelled correct) I’ve ever had may also be good choices. The pasta’s tend to be very "al dente" on Princess, so you may ask they cook it a bit longer if it’s an issue. but belaboring the issue is just a further waste of what little space is left in this group actually discussing cruising. …and soup choices, too.  How did this thread get from soup to nuts? (Just having a laugh, nothing personal toward anyone here) Kit

Response:

I wonder if any of you cruise gurus have noticed if Princess, or any of the lines, will attempt to accommodate people on special diets.  I am not talking vegan or Muslim or fruitarian, but things like liquid-only or soft-food.  Someone told me that at lunch and dinner, they offer more than 2 choices of soups.  Were they really good?

Response:

I wonder if any of you cruise gurus have noticed if Princess, or any of the lines, will attempt to accommodate people on special diets.  I am not talking vegan or Muslim or fruitarian, but things like liquid-only or soft-food.  Someone told me that at lunch and dinner, they offer more than 2 choices of soups.  Were they really good?

At dinner there was always three soup choices, usually one was a chilled fruity variety. For the most part they were pretty good – some were excellent and some were so-so. Aside from the soups (some had bits of solid matter), I’m not sure how they would accomodate a liquid diet (although on sea days, i pretty much kept to a liquid diet of pina coladas and "drinks of the day"). Soft foods would be easier, but might still present a challenge. I know Princess 9and the other lines) can easily acommodate a vegetarian, low salt or low fat/cholesterol diet, but not sure what they’ll be able to do for you as far as liquid/softs goes. Lee

Response:

Good Morning: It has been my experience, and reported by clients, that Princess Galley staff will do everything possible to accomodate special diet needs. They really do appreciate advance notice however so be sure your agent has communicated this to the proper departments at Princess and you should reconfirm as soon as you board the ship. Have a great Cruise. Cal Ford Lido Deck Cruises says… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -I wonder if any of you cruise gurus have noticed if Princess, or any of the lines, will attempt to accommodate people on special diets.  I am not talking vegan or Muslim or fruitarian, but things like liquid-only or soft-food.  Someone told me that at lunch and dinner, they offer more than 2 choices of soups.  Were they really good?

Response:

GREETINGS ALL One of the many pleasures of cruising is the food. Further, the soups always are a treat to me. The chilled soups are most interesting . Cruising is a state of mind!!!            HAPPY RAILS TO YOU                     CRICK                    

Response:

Princess soups are usually very good, even if you are not part of the GGC’s. They usually have several at the buffet for lunch, and a couple more in the dining room, so there is a very good selection.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I wonder if any of you cruise gurus have noticed if Princess, or any of the lines, will attempt to accommodate people on special diets.  I am not talking vegan or Muslim or fruitarian, but things like liquid-only or soft-food.  Someone told me that at lunch and dinner, they offer more than 2 choices of soups.  Were they really good?

Response:

Okay, I’ll bite…what’s a GGC? Princess soups are usually very good, even if you are not part of the

GGC’s.

Response:

Okay, I’ll bite…what’s a GGC?

GGC is the Great Group Cult. When you say soft food, would pasta be in this catagory? Princess has pasta course at every dinner and also has pasta’s on the menu at lunch in both the buffet and dining room.

Response:

The GGC is short for Group Gone Crazy.  It’s when people become obsessed and carry on trying to solicit people to go on a cruise.  It’s when they openly argue over prices with other agents who feel slighted because they were not, nor will they ever be eligible to bid on it because they don’t own their own agency.  It’s a virus that starts off slowly enough, but after a couple of weeks it peaks (right about now) and starts creeping into every post on the board. Once the GGC disease hits, one out of every three posts here are about one Gone Crazy group or another.  (66 our of 231 so far today). It only gets worse, until people start making Deposits, then it starts dropping off again.  One or two of the ANS (agents not selected) will start raising hell and undercutting the prices and advertising for business here, but nobody cares because they have all Gone Crazy (GC).  Instead of starting each post with the letters GC so people who are not interested can easily skip over the messages, they start  messages with titles such as test to start yet another discussion about yet another GC. Because they assume that everybody here cares about the GC posts, they don’t bother to make them easy to separate out.  That would make it very easy for those of us not interested in the Group Gone Crazy to tell our newsreaders to filter out those messages, but because the GGC has gone crazy, simple newsreader etiquette goes out the door.  It doesn’t matter, once the virus starts, it’s only a matter of time before pretty much every post has something to do with one GC or another. There are many strains of the disease this year, the GGC, EGC, FGC, AGC, and now the GGC has mutated into the GGGC. You get neat stuff, like a secret decoder ring so they will be able to tell who is from Group Gone Crazy (GGC), the Alternative Gone Crazies (AGC), the EGC, and the FGC’s.  Depending on which group you pick you will have to HYSY (haul your suitcases yourself) from the ATHTP (airport to hotel to pier) where you will have to WILF (wait in line forever), and there for be classified a lower class of citizen because you don’t possess the secret decoder ring (SDR).  You will get to form into discrete groups of people getting free drinks on certain nights on the ship, depending on which GC you become a member.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Okay, I’ll bite…what’s a GGC? Princess soups are usually very good, even if you are not part of the GGC’s.

Response:

Great Group Cruise voted on & discussed in R.T.C. and attended by lots of its readers each year. there have been 4 so far the next one is next January www.ggc2002.com don’t listen to the naysayers,,, it is a wonderful means of fellowship & fun!  some readers would not even consider the GGC’s even if they were free,, well we feel sorry for them as they do not know what they are missing! Muffin booked on the Genuine GGC2002! – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Okay, I’ll bite…what’s a GGC? Princess soups are usually very good, even if you are not part of the GGC’s.

Response:

Well, sometimes pasta will stay down, but really, soups and applesauce and meal replacement drinks and pedialite keep me alive. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – When you say soft food, would pasta be in this catagory? Princess has pasta course at every dinner and also has pasta’s on the menu at lunch in both the buffet and dining room.

Response:

Amen! During the time I’ve been participating on this newsgroup, and in the egroups, I’ve seen amazing extremes of human behavior! I’ve seen requests for emotional support that were met overwhelmingly, sometimes with results that seemed pretty incredible. But, OTOH, I have seen the other side of a group mentality…. I see people lower themselves by attacking someone, often without giving much thought to what they are saying (meaning that they are factually wrong, way too often), merely to amuse their friends. I’m one of the people who was on the wait list for a single cabin on the GGC2002. I have been aware that there are now cabins available, but I’m just not sure how I feel about booking one. Yes, there are people who, as individuals, I think I’d very much like to meet… but I am concerned about the dynamics…. I don’t know that I want to be "in" with the group, don’t think that there would be any advantage for me, as a single, to book unless that was my objective. Marsha, frustrated, confused, bemused and a whole bunch of other things!

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – The GGC is short for Group Gone Crazy.  It’s when people become obsessed and carry on trying to solicit people to go on a cruise.  It’s when they openly argue over prices with other agents who feel slighted because they were not, nor will they ever be eligible to bid on it because they don’t own their own agency.  It’s a virus that starts off slowly enough, but after a couple of weeks it peaks (right about now) and starts creeping into every post on the board. Once the GGC disease hits, one out of every three posts here are about one Gone Crazy group or another.  (66 our of 231 so far today). It only gets worse, until people start making Deposits, then it starts dropping off again.  One or two of the ANS (agents not selected) will start raising hell and undercutting the prices and advertising for business here, but nobody cares because they have all Gone Crazy (GC).  Instead of starting each post with the letters GC so people who are not interested can easily skip over the messages, they start  messages with titles such as test to start yet another discussion about yet another GC. Because they assume that everybody here cares about the GC posts, they don’t bother to make them easy to separate out.  That would make it very easy for those of us not interested in the Group Gone Crazy to tell our newsreaders to filter out those messages, but because the GGC has gone crazy, simple newsreader etiquette goes out the door.  It doesn’t matter, once the virus starts, it’s only a matter of time before pretty much every post has something to do with one GC or another. There are many strains of the disease this year, the GGC, EGC, FGC, AGC, and now the GGC has mutated into the GGGC. You get neat stuff, like a secret decoder ring so they will be able to tell who is from Group Gone Crazy (GGC), the Alternative Gone Crazies (AGC), the EGC, and the FGC’s.  Depending on which group you pick you will have to HYSY (haul your suitcases yourself) from the ATHTP (airport to hotel to pier) where you will have to WILF (wait in line forever), and there for be classified a lower class of citizen because you don’t possess the secret decoder ring (SDR).  You will get to form into discrete groups of people getting free drinks on certain nights on the ship, depending on which GC you become a member. Okay, I’ll bite…what’s a GGC? Princess soups are usually very good, even if you are not part of the GGC’s.

Response:

Mike:  I am really shocked by your tirade against the GGC. It is so unlike you. What is so surprising is that you have so much to say about the GGC, and yet you know so little about it. Since you have never been on a GGC cruise with a lot of friendly fun-loving people you will never know what it is like…..and, sadly, what your are missing.    Peter que sera sera I`m booked on the GGC2002 www.GGC2002.com

Response:

GREETINGS MIKE C I note, with minor interest, that your dissertation an GGC is in a NON GGC  thread.  By the way Mike BITE ME CRICK

Response:

Actually, it was in answer to a direct question asked about it.  The original reply was about soups on Princess, which is the thread. Had the thread been moved then the poster would never have seen the answer. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – GREETINGS MIKE C I note, with minor interest, that your dissertation an GGC is in a NON GGC  thread.  By the way Mike BITE ME CRICK

Response:

I’ve got nothing against the cruise, those going will have a blast.  I’m against what the constant and petty bickering over stupid things like names on people’s doors has done to the newsgroup.  Tonight, over half the posts were one thing or another about the various groups, agent selection, logos, lines, etc. It’s my opinion, which others have very clearly explained to me in e-mails and posts I’m not entitled to (which is why being an elitist has nothing to do with the cost of the cruise).  I hope those going have a great time. It’s just a shame, again my opinion and those who have agreed, what it’s done to what use to be a very good newsgroup, which now is nothing but a place to bitch about each other.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Mike:  I am really shocked by your tirade against the GGC. It is so unlike you. What is so surprising is that you have so much to say about the GGC, and yet you know so little about it. Since you have never been on a GGC cruise with a lot of friendly fun-loving people you will never know what it is like…..and, sadly, what your are missing.    Peter que sera sera I`m booked on the GGC2002 www.GGC2002.com

Response:

Sorry Mike; but you are reaching for straws when you said: <<….I am against what the constant and petty bickering over stupid things like names on doors has done to the newsgroup      Not once has names on doors been brought up, or bickered about. All the other items that you mention are the very things that have always been discussed on this newsgroup….and, without any kind of the bickering that you mention. So what is really your point in even raising these issues. Your bickering certainly isn`t helping to calm these waters, is it? que sera sera I`m booked on the GGC2002 www.GGC2002.com

Response:

Sorry, but I believe you are mistaken.  You would want to look at posts from Feb 6, March 20, April 9, April 11, and probably others, where name tags and door tags are discussed as a means of identifying others on the cruise, and as one said to identify who can benefit from the groups activities and camaraderie.   They were also mentioned as a reason to take the official group cruise over anybody else booking space on that trip, for the name tags on the door.  I can’t make this stuff up. Lee also quotes somebody in his reply. It’s not worth my discussing anymore, and it only goes on to further what my initial post was about, so I’m dropping out of this silliness.  I’ve tried to make my point, which of course some agree with and some don’t, but belaboring the issue is just a further waste of what little space is left in this group actually discussing cruising.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Sorry Mike; but you are reaching for straws when you said: <<….I am against what the constant and petty bickering over stupid things like names on doors has done to the newsgroup    Not once has names on doors been brought up, or bickered about. All the other items that you mention are the very things that have always been discussed on this newsgroup….and, without any kind of the bickering that you mention. So what is really your point in even raising these issues. Your bickering certainly isn`t helping to calm these waters, is it? que sera sera I`m booked on the GGC2002 www.GGC2002.com

Response:

but belaboring the issue is just a further waste of what little space is left in this group actually discussing cruising.

…and soup choices, too.  How did this thread get from soup to nuts? (Just having a laugh, nothing personal toward anyone here) Kit

Response:

That would be my fault probably, I made a snippy comment about everybody on Princess getting good soups (and their Clam Chowder is to die for) weather or not they were part of a group. But seriously, I don’t think we should be discussing nuts either, be it the kind going on the cruise, or the kinds you eat, they certainly don’t constitute soft food. For the person who asked the question, how soft does soft have to be? Scallops, the pasta’s, certainly some of the veggies they mash up, soups, etc may all be good choices.  Ice creams, gellato’s, sherbets, and the best creme brule (OK, that isn’t spelled correct) I’ve ever had may also be good choices. The pasta’s tend to be very "al dente" on Princess, so you may ask they cook it a bit longer if it’s an issue.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – but belaboring the issue is just a further waste of what little space is left in this group actually discussing cruising. …and soup choices, too.  How did this thread get from soup to nuts? (Just having a laugh, nothing personal toward anyone here) Kit

Response:

And there is my all time favorite dessert at sea, Princess version of Panna Cotta, a silky custard that makes creme caramel seem coarse and boring. Carole cruzdiva2cruisemates.com

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – That would be my fault probably, I made a snippy comment about everybody on Princess getting good soups (and their Clam Chowder is to die for) weather or not they were part of a group. But seriously, I don’t think we should be discussing nuts either, be it the kind going on the cruise, or the kinds you eat, they certainly don’t constitute soft food. For the person who asked the question, how soft does soft have to be? Scallops, the pasta’s, certainly some of the veggies they mash up, soups, etc may all be good choices.  Ice creams, gellato’s, sherbets, and the best creme brule (OK, that isn’t spelled correct) I’ve ever had may also be good choices. The pasta’s tend to be very "al dente" on Princess, so you may ask they cook it a bit longer if it’s an issue. but belaboring the issue is just a further waste of what little space is left in this group actually discussing cruising. …and soup choices, too.  How did this thread get from soup to nuts? (Just having a laugh, nothing personal toward anyone here) Kit

Response:

Question:

Hi! I had a recently scary visit with my endo.  She and I spoke about a lot of things, and I just started the Atkins diet.  I personally don’t like the diet and prefer Zone…and she hates it, but wants me to do something more aggressive, since I hardly lost weight on restricted carb. diets, and Metformin didn’t work for me.  (I know there’s other drugs/combinations to try, but I’m TTC, and my other doctors don’t want me to take anything while trying). I received a message from my doctor’s office that my endo wants to re- test my lipids.  I’m getting really scared. I have high cholesterol.  Is it related? What are lipids? What do they do? What happens in PCOS patients if lipids are too high? Thanks for answering my questions. Wendy. Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Before you buy.

Response:

Hi Wendy- I have had high lipids (cholesterol ) since the age of 15. I have been on lipitor for over a year and they went from 316 to 182. Your lipids can be controlled with medicine. Make sure you take care of it though because high cholesterol is not any help to PCO patients especially!! If the doctor tells you that you need to cut out cheese etc…listen to them but remember PCO patients have a predisposition to make more lipids then the average patient. Good Luck!! Autumn-Nicole Kid At Heart Kreations & Designs <ownedby…@my-deja.com> wrote in message

news:8hpbtp$qp9$1@nnrp1.deja.com… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Hi! > I had a recently scary visit with my endo.  She and I spoke about a lot > of things, and I just started the Atkins diet.  I personally don’t like > the diet and prefer Zone…and she hates it, but wants me to do > something more aggressive, since I hardly lost weight on restricted > carb. diets, and Metformin didn’t work for me.  (I know there’s other > drugs/combinations to try, but I’m TTC, and my other doctors don’t want > me to take anything while trying). > I received a message from my doctor’s office that my endo wants to re- > test my lipids.  I’m getting really scared. > I have high cholesterol.  Is it related? > What are lipids? > What do they do? > What happens in PCOS patients if lipids are too high? > Thanks for answering my questions. > Wendy. > Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ > Before you buy.

Response:

lipids are fats in the body,too much can clog your arteries leaving you open to stroke or heart attack it appears to be common for  PCOS  women to have" hyperlipidemia"might be do to the insulin resistance……..anyway, low fat low cholesterol diet is in order no fried food,…broiled, boiled is key if it does not go down you’ll probably go on meds (I’m on lipitor,theres a few out there insurance usually dictates what you get to try)and if put on meds you’ll need labs somewhere within a month to make sure its not effecting the liver and that its working,than every 6 months there after,..for most your on it for ever,…..hope I helped, be well—mary ;o) <ownedby…@my-deja.com> wrote in message

news:8hpbtp$qp9$1@nnrp1.deja.com… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Hi! > I had a recently scary visit with my endo.  She and I spoke about a lot > of things, and I just started the Atkins diet.  I personally don’t like > the diet and prefer Zone…and she hates it, but wants me to do > something more aggressive, since I hardly lost weight on restricted > carb. diets, and Metformin didn’t work for me.  (I know there’s other > drugs/combinations to try, but I’m TTC, and my other doctors don’t want > me to take anything while trying). > I received a message from my doctor’s office that my endo wants to re- > test my lipids.  I’m getting really scared. > I have high cholesterol.  Is it related? > What are lipids? > What do they do? > What happens in PCOS patients if lipids are too high? > Thanks for answering my questions. > Wendy. > Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ > Before you buy.

Response:

Has anyone had success lowering cholesterol with low-carb…such as Atkins, or do I now have to low-carb AND low-fat? Thanks, Wendy. In article <8hpbtp$qp…@nnrp1.deja.com>, – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -  ownedby…@my-deja.com wrote: > Hi! > I had a recently scary visit with my endo.  She and I spoke about a lot > of things, and I just started the Atkins diet.  I personally don’t like > the diet and prefer Zone…and she hates it, but wants me to do > something more aggressive, since I hardly lost weight on restricted > carb. diets, and Metformin didn’t work for me.  (I know there’s other > drugs/combinations to try, but I’m TTC, and my other doctors don’t want > me to take anything while trying). > I received a message from my doctor’s office that my endo wants to re- > test my lipids.  I’m getting really scared. > I have high cholesterol.  Is it related? > What are lipids? > What do they do? > What happens in PCOS patients if lipids are too high? > Thanks for answering my questions. > Wendy. > Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ > Before you buy.

Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Before you buy.

Response: